John C. (Jack) Palmer

1938

OAC

Sunday, July 4, 1993

A. Grubbe

RE1 UOG A1340072

Art Grubbe (00:00:03):
JC "Jack" Palmer, Class of 1938, Ontario Agricultural College, conducted by Art Grubbe on July the 4th, 1993 for the University of Guelph Alumni Association and the Alumni in Action committee.

Art Grubbe (00:00:19):
I guess I've come to know you much better since we moved into the, this, uh, building some seven years ago. Our paths did not seem to cross to such an extent during our working days, even though I was supposed to be working with the dairy branch and then did, I think. However, uh, I think the things started to happen when we were asked to be the founding members of the em- Alumni in Action group. I know of Palmers at Norwich, Jack, but not, um, Hatchley. How come?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:00:59):
Well, uh, Hatchley is, uh, where my mother was born and it is about, uh, five miles north and west of Norwich, Ontario. Uh, Hatchley is in Brandt County; Norwich is in Oxford County. So I was born on the county line between Brantford, Brant County, and Oxford County on Lot 1, Concession 1, North Norwich township.

Art Grubbe (00:01:36):
That's very interesting. But, uh, the um, the, uh, as- as I said, uh, I did know a Crawford Palmer. I think you discussed this before. Crawford Palmer was the class of mine in- in the, uh, near me, in the, uh, associate class. Uh, I think you established that he was, uh, what, an first cousin?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:01:55):
He was a- a second cousin of mine.

Art Grubbe (00:01:58):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:01:58):
Uh, his, uh, father, his grandfather and my grandfather were brothers.

Art Grubbe (00:02:05):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:02:06):
And, uh, in that, uh, relationship, why, both my grandfather and his grandfather attended the agricultural school in Toronto in 19, uh, no, 1868, 1869, et cetera.

Art Grubbe (00:02:37):
How interesting. So what factors influenced you to attend the college on the hill?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:02:47):
Well, uh, I, uh, think that, uh, the main factors that, uh, influenced me were the fact that, uh, I had a brother who took a course up in here under GR Green, the ag rep of ag- Oxford county, uh, in, uh, 1918. He was, uh, later died in 1918 as a result of the Asian flu that, uh, swept the country in, at that period of time. Uh, I also had, uh, two neighbors who attended the OAC, Wilford Bishop and, uh, Earl Hartley.

Art Grubbe (00:03:33):
Oh.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:03:33):
Earl Hartley graduated in 1931. I forget what year Wilford, uh, graduated.

Art Grubbe (00:03:39):
Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:03:41):
Um, uh, I also, uh, that fact that my grandfather, uh, attended the agricultural school before the ... in Toronto, uh, before the OAC was founded, why, uh, uh, I think had a bearing on it. Uh, the- the fact that I would like to have, uh, continued, uh, my agricultural asso- or my association with agriculture.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:04:10):
And, uh, the, uh, probably the biggest thing that influenced my attending the OAC was the, uh, economic situation at the time. Uh, we were in the midst of a deep recession. I loved farming, but, uh, there was just no money in farming, and I, uh, uh, the prices on the farm were next to, uh, starvation levels. I can remember my dad, uh, got 70-some cents a hundred for milk, sending it to the cheese factory, and, uh, anything that, uh, that a person from farming would be those kinds of prices.

Art Grubbe (00:05:04):
That's a fact in that day. You know, of the interviews that I've done in this connection, I think the other thing that came out loud and (laughs) and- and clear was that the price was right at the college.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:05:16):
Yes. (laughs)

Art Grubbe (00:05:17):
I d- know how much they were subsidized, but- but (laughs) it seemed to be a- a pretty, uh, ... Somebody said you couldn't afford to live at home.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:05:25):
Well, uh, in connection with that, I- I, uh, I loved farming, the values. If farming had been, uh, paid any, paid at all well, why, I would've stayed farming.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:05:39):
But, uh, I started to look, uh, around for other things to do because I had a younger brother who could stay on the farm with my dad and, uh, I had decided to look for other things to do. And I started writing colleges and so on in the States and I found out that, uh, you couldn't get into most of these places without, uh, uh, doing your matriculation.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:06:06):
And so, uh, I hadn't written the OAC at that time to find out their, uh, entrance requirements. And if I had've, I probably would've not gone back to high school as I did. I went back to high school, uh, in 1932 and finished my junior matriculation and then actually took most of my fifth form too.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:06:34):
And, uh, in those days, under the, uh, principal at a, the Norwich High School at that time was Cameron St. John, who was also a graduate of the OAC. And I can remember going up to him and asking him with, you know, why I was too old to go back to high school and- and, uh, get my junior matric. He encouraged me to do so and I and another fellow by the name of John Rothwell, uh, who used, who wa- was later in the chemistry department at the OAC, both attended Norwich High School, uh, as older students.

Art Grubbe (00:07:14):
John Rothwell, yeah. That rings a bell. He- he was, what, in chemistry?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:07:17):
In chemistry, yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:07:20):
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, that's- that's-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:07:22):
I, uh, I wrote, uh, uh, Archie Porter.

Art Grubbe (00:07:25):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:07:25):
And I asked him if, uh, uh, there was any possibility of, uh, since I had very little if any money, if there was any way I could, uh, there was any student labor, uh, available in the, uh, for a person attending the Ontario Agricultural College. I especially particularly interested in, uh, horticulture at that time because I knew I had been with the Davey Tree Company for a year or so, and, uh, I was kind of interested in and thought I might ... I had a grandiose idea that I might be a landscape gardener some day.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:08:08):
So, uh, I was asking something about work in this connection, uh, uh, well, if it was available. He, uh, dropped me a line and told me to, that there was, student labor was available but he didn't know how much would be in the connection with horticulture. Uh, but, uh, certainly there was, uh, lots of work available. So ...

Art Grubbe (00:08:36):
Remember what you got per hour at that, in those days?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:08:39):
I started out, uh, in the, uh, uh, dairy barn at 15 cents an hour.

Art Grubbe (00:08:45):
Yeah. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:08:46):
Later it went to 20 cents an hour. And, uh, Doc Staples hired us once to build the, uh, help build the fence around, uh, for the horses that they had, uh, at the, uh, uh, in the barn there to exercise in, and we had to build, uh, uh, dig holes for post holes.

Art Grubbe (00:09:15):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:09:16):
And at 35 cents an hour he paid us for that.

Art Grubbe (00:09:20):
That- that was really looking up. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:09:23):
That was really hard work too.

Art Grubbe (00:09:25):
Yeah. (laughing) Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Well, that seems to have established pretty well you had lots of good reasons why OAC was the right place for ya.

Art Grubbe (00:09:36):
Now the rest of it. Um, this whole question of initiation comes up so many ti- different times. I guess I've reaction both ways. Some thou- thought it was the best thing that ever happened; the other person, uh, thinks that maybe it was ... And I guess both at times some way or other there was a considerable ... Uh, well, just wasn't the thing to do anymore. Uh, what was your reaction and how, what happened, what, uh, happened to ...

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:10:07):
Oh, I, uh, in some ways, um, initiation was a good thing because it kept the year together a bit against other years. You had a spirit there that made the- the initiated, uh, been initiated by the initiation. Uh, I mostly hated it, to tell the truth.

Art Grubbe (00:10:29):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:10:29):
Uh, I well remember the days when, uh, when initiation was on that, uh, all at once at 5:00 in the morning the second year, who were carrying out the initiation of our year, would come up and on the floor and they had some apparatus that they'd slap against the floor and make one helluva noise at 5:00 in the morning.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:10:56):
Banging on our doors and get us up and hauled in to the campus and doing exercises. And the worst exercise that I ever had to do was the, um, duck walk. And, uh, I blame now, uh ... I had both my knees, uh, operated on since and I blame that on the duck walk that I had in 1938 at the initiation.

Art Grubbe (00:11:23):
More than 50 years ago. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:11:24):
Yes. Yes.

Art Grubbe (00:11:24):
Oh. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:11:27):
That was a helluva thing to-

Art Grubbe (00:11:28):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:11:30):
... put a fella through.

Art Grubbe (00:11:31):
But the same tok- by the same token, you do mention the fact that it, that you thought it helped to- to, uh-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:11:37):
[crosstalk].

Art Grubbe (00:11:37):
... keep the class together and then, uh, sort of develop a class spirit that, uh, might not otherwise have happened. And I think that's something we should get into too because the, I have a sneaking suspicion the Class of '38, uh, was sort of a rather outstanding class in respect to, uh, to what you accomplished in all the other things that you've done. But maybe we'll get into it, but we'll- we'll- we'll go back to that a little later. Um, I suppose right now the question I'd ask, uh, ask you: Which professor made a lasting impression on you?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:12:16):
Well, uh, well, there were a lot of, uh, professors, uh, you know, was associated with the students. It di- ... And in look- in thinking back, the number of professors who were associated with student in their clubs, their, uh, exhibitions that they had on. This was all over ... Extra work as far ... over and above teaching.

Art Grubbe (00:12:40):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:12:40):
And it amazes me when I look back on it how many of these professors, uh, were involved in student activities.

Art Grubbe (00:12:48):
Right.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:12:49):
Uh, such a coaching, like Prof. Hamilton, the, uh, on the hockey team. Uh, Prof. Davey.

Art Grubbe (00:12:57):
He was-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:12:57):
He was on soccer.

Art Grubbe (00:12:58):
Yes.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:12:59):
Yes.

Art Grubbe (00:13:00):
Right.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:13:00):
And, uh, uh, Prof. Blackwood was, uh, another fellow that, uh ...

Art Grubbe (00:13:09):
His specialty first was marksmanship.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:13:11):
Yes.

Art Grubbe (00:13:12):
He, uh, did a lot a work, didn't he, with the various people in- in the, in ... Where was that- that, uh, shooting gallery or at least the, uh, the place? Was that in the basement of- of, uh, McDowell Institute or where was it?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:13:27):
I think it was in the basement of, uh, in ... No, it wasn't McDowell Institute. I think it was, uh, ... Would it be in Mills Hall?

Art Grubbe (00:13:37):
Maybe so. Uh, anyway, it was a basement activity and- and, uh, had to be safe and all of that 'cause that ... And- and, uh, and he wou- he did, you were right. Uh, Prof. Blackwood was great on- on the rifle, um, um, uh, marksmanship, really.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:13:56):
Prof., uh, Blackwood would always had, uh, uh, the, uh, the saying that you never forget it, "The task always splits." That was the one of the, one of his favorite sayings when he'd take a vote as to what, uh, um ... Uh, there other fellows that, uh, I thought were great. Uh, Prof. Staples was, uh, one of, uh, outstanding characters of the, uh, college in my time. Uh, he had, he always, uh, talk you to how to number from the left and the rear, you know.

Art Grubbe (00:14:32):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:14:32):
Uh, and a few other things as well. Um ...

Art Grubbe (00:14:36):
Yeah. Did he tell ya how to castrate a- a lamb?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:14:40):
No, we didn't get into that sort of thing in our class.

Art Grubbe (00:14:43):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:14:44):
Uh, Jerry Lonke-

Art Grubbe (00:14:45):
Yes.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:14:45):
... was our, uh ...

Art Grubbe (00:14:49):
Class president?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:14:49):
Class president.

Art Grubbe (00:14:51):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:14:51):
And, um ...

Art Grubbe (00:14:51):
At least the honorary president of your-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:14:53):
Honest president of our year.

Art Grubbe (00:14:54):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:14:55):
And was an outstanding man and always a gentleman as I remember him.

Art Grubbe (00:14:59):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:15:00):
Uh, but there's other fellows that, uh ... Prof. Lunke or Prof., uh, uh, Knox.

Art Grubbe (00:15:08):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:15:08):
Helped me along with, uh, uh, gave us a, uh, job at the, uh, student labor down at the back dairy barns.

Art Grubbe (00:15:19):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:15:19):
And I remember him, uh, I took or he offering this, uh, uh, pretty good deal to look ... When Bob Galt looked after one of the barns back there and I looked after the other one. And, uh, we were, oh, paid pretty good money to do this in those days. I used to play, uh, bridge with, uh, Doc McConnachie.

Art Grubbe (00:15:44):
Oswald.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:15:47):
And Os- Oswald McConnachie. Now, he was a great fellow. He always ... I remember him always teaching us that if your father was bald-headed and had two sons, one of them would be all bald-headed and the other one wouldn't. Uh, I don't know whether that ever ... It proved true in my dad's case.

Art Grubbe (00:16:06):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:16:06):
He, his brother was bald-headed and he wasn't. But, uh ...

Art Grubbe (00:16:12):
Genetics, and he was a, he was a good one too. Another one I, uh ... Did you have, um-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:16:18):
[crosstalk].

Art Grubbe (00:16:18):
... guy, so he taught us, uh, genetics, but I- I got so involved in the thing I think I got lost and I- I learned more from, uh, McConnachie and- and his explanation of genetics.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:16:30):
Yeah, genetics. And that was-

Art Grubbe (00:16:30):
Charlie As- Charlie Castell. I don't know whether you ever had anything to do with Charlie Castell, but he was bacteriology.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:16:36):
Bacteriology.

Art Grubbe (00:16:37):
Right. But, uh, he took, he taught English to us or helped us brush up on our English after Doc Steevy, uh, had taught the lesson.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:16:53):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:16:53):
But he would take Shakespeare and- and go over it with us and prepare us for the exams. Oh, we always had to pay, I think, uh, uh, take up a collection, in other words, from our, all the students and there were ... It wouldn't be unusual for, say, uh, uh, 75 students to be taking a lecture from Charlie Castell to prepare for the English exam.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:17:18):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:17:18):
Even though he was a teacher in- in [crosstalk].

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:17:21):
Yeah, bacteriology.

Art Grubbe (00:17:22):
Bacteriology.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:17:23):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:17:26):
Yeah. Well, that's it. That's ... You still haven't been, haven't, uh, mentioned, um, perhaps, uh, Smallfield.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:17:32):
Oh, I would ... Prof. Smallfield and Prof. Spruel.

Art Grubbe (00:17:36):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:17:36):
Uh, were both very, uh, influential in my, uh, during my years in the dairy department, but I never ... Outstanding fellows, uh, uh, and helped me a lot.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:17:51):
Uh, Prof. Spruel, uh, gave me opportunities in the dairy department and, you know, the people would come up there and ask, uh, for somebody to, uh, applications, put in an application for a job and he would often, since I was probably the oldest member of the class, one of the things that I got to was often a recommendation for a job, uh, with him.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:18:19):
Harry Smallfield, uh, um, we used to carry on a few pranks, but it was mainly after I was a student, worked at the dairy department and not as a student. Harry was a pretty quiet, stable teacher and, but he was certainly a fellow that I, uh, highly respected.

Art Grubbe (00:18:47):
Yeah, that's- that's- that's good and- and, of course, um, out of that too, you were a member of the, um, International Dairy Products, uh, judging team.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:18:58):
Under, uh, uh ...

Art Grubbe (00:19:00):
And- and then that Smallfield was the, your coach.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:03):
He was the coach.

Art Grubbe (00:19:03):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:04):
And we came, uh, well, we traveled to Atlantic City and took part in the ... That was, uh, uh ... The money for that was supplied by the Silverwoods Dairy Corporation.

Art Grubbe (00:19:17):
Your traveling expenses.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:18):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:19:18):
I wondered about that.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:19):
It was a, was a- a scholarship. We were-

Art Grubbe (00:19:21):
Yeah, right.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:25):
... That, um, provided the expenses for that trip. And-

Art Grubbe (00:19:26):
Didn't you have to go to Springfield, uh, Massachusetts?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:29):
Yeah. Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:19:30):
Yeah. But all, each of those were you- you ... It was more or less, as you say, a scholarship that was-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:36):
Yeah. Yep.

Art Grubbe (00:19:37):
... funds provided to cover your traveling expenses-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:40):
Right. [crosstalk].

Art Grubbe (00:19:40):
... and living expenses.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:41):
You never forget it.

Art Grubbe (00:19:43):
No, I guess not. No. You- you apparently were- were a reasonable judge of good butter in those days too, according to the [inaudible] of your year.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:19:53):
Well, we, uh ... I noticed that, uh, Bob Galt came fifth and I came sixth and, uh, and, uh, Ed Coxford came along in- in the room of that same category.

Art Grubbe (00:20:09):
Yeah. Yeah. So at any rate, that's the.. You did, there were some, what, excellent people. Uh, I don't know whether, uh, our group ever had that much respect for your, for Knox, really. Uh, I don't know whether, just why the reason was, but, uh, as I sort of, I was ... Well, often I'm, uh, wondered if- if it- it ... Well, probably I shouldn't mention it anyway. But any rate, it just, it just didn't seem to hit it off with our people as well as it was some of the others did.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:20:40):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Art Grubbe (00:20:41):
Um, that way, why, what were some of your college's experiences. Uh, obviously, (laughs) you had a job to do and- and, uh, trying to get, gather together some money to keep that insole together, so you didn't get into sports an- or that sort of thing to the same extent. Uh, is that a- a fair assessment?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:21:02):
Uh, I would say so. We didn't, uh, ... I was, uh, in the, uh, for my first year we, I was in residency.

Art Grubbe (00:21:11):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:21:11):
And, uh, uh, I joined the Officer Training Corps.

Art Grubbe (00:21:16):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:21:17):
At that time.

Art Grubbe (00:21:18):
That's COTC?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:21:19):
Along with and used to have to go down to the armories and parade on ...

Art Grubbe (00:21:24):
Kendall?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:21:25):
Yes. And, uh, Webb.

Art Grubbe (00:21:29):
Webb.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:21:29):
And, uh, uh, march up and down and form fours and all that sort of stuff.

Art Grubbe (00:21:35):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:21:36):
Uh, one of the things I should relate in connection with this, uh, uh, you got a dollar a day for going down. Uh, and that was probably my big reason for joining the Officers Training Corp-

Art Grubbe (00:21:48):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:21:48):
... was to get a little money. And (laughs) that's ... But, uh, on occasion, if you didn't want to go down or had something else to do on that Monday night, 'cause it was always on a Monday, why, uh, we would go down to Dr. Annie Ross and, uh, the nurse there and ask for, uh, a note. And if we got a note that there was something wrong with us, why, we got our dollar a day anyway and then didn't have to go down.

Art Grubbe (00:22:22):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:22:22):
So we gloat in the hall. I wasn't the only one that did this, and we'd wave our arms up and run up and down the hall, get our pulse going a little fast, and then go in and ask her to take our pulse and (laughs) so on and, uh, and, uh, pretend there was something wrong with us. And, uh, she cooperated very well.

Art Grubbe (00:22:42):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:22:42):
She- she'd generally give us a note.

Art Grubbe (00:22:44):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:22:44):
And, uh, uh, we didn't do it too many times, but it did happen.

Art Grubbe (00:22:48):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:22:48):
And, uh, there's lots of fun, really.

Art Grubbe (00:22:52):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:22:53):
Uh, one of the things that we used to do.

Art Grubbe (00:22:56):
So you write about the pulling tricks like that to, then exactly, eh?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:23:00):
In our last, uh, during my, uh, uh, year I- I roomed with Jim Platt, uh, the ... And the other three years I roomed with Bob Galt.

Art Grubbe (00:23:13):
Oh, yes?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:23:14):
But I've only spent, uh, two years in residence, my first and my last year. And the other two years, why, I, uh, lived in, uh, Alec Grant's home, uh, down on College Avenue, uh, just below the golf course there, office of the golf course. And, uh, we, uh, got our meals there and, uh, a room for $2 a week. And, uh, uh, that is one way I-

Art Grubbe (00:23:44):
They must've liked your company, though.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:23:46):
I ... (laughs) Uh, well, uh, the money and so did we. (laughing)

Art Grubbe (00:23:53):
$2 doesn't really seem too much, does it?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:23:54):
No, no. But that was the times.

Art Grubbe (00:23:56):
Yeah, yeah, you're right.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:23:58):
That was the times.

Art Grubbe (00:23:58):
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:24:00):
So, uh, but, uh, well, I suppose there's, uh, other experiences we could tell. You don't want me to bring in the pranks that we-

Art Grubbe (00:24:12):
Oh, sure. Those stories.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:24:13):
Well, we used to-

Art Grubbe (00:24:14):
That was my next question.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:24:15):
... We used to raid the dining hall. Uh-

Art Grubbe (00:24:18):
(laughs) Even though you didn't- didn't have a ticket to go in and eat there?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:24:21):
Well, no, this was when I was in, uh, first, this happened into my last year when we lived in Mellus Hall.

Art Grubbe (00:24:28):
Right. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:24:29):
We, uh, carried on a few things. Took lacings and- and, uh, carried on. I had a few cohorts to do this.

Art Grubbe (00:24:38):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:24:38):
And we would go and get into the dining hall some way or other. I don't know how we did it in- in this day.

Art Grubbe (00:24:45):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:24:45):
But we'd get a si- a side of bacon or, uh-

Art Grubbe (00:24:48):
Okay. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:24:48):
... and, uh, bread. And we had had a toaster up in the room, and we could, uh, and a frying pan and a hot plate and we could, uh, uh, oh, I suppose get a, the odd egg or something like this. Uh, but I can remember particularly in getting some bacon. And- and, uh, we'd-

Art Grubbe (00:25:13):
(laughs) Would this already be sliced?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:25:14):
No.

Art Grubbe (00:25:14):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:25:15):
We'd have to slice it.

Art Grubbe (00:25:16):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:25:17):
And, uh, uh, we would, uh, cook it up on a stove up in the, in the room and have sandwiches.

Art Grubbe (00:25:26):
Had the windows wide open-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:25:26):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:25:26):
... and hoping, uh, if you wouldn't ...

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:25:28):
No. Oh, yes. There were things like that. I can remember one time we went and put a car over on the steps of the Mac Hall and, uh, just to block the stairs, the stairway of- of the, uh ... The other time, another time, we took somebody's bed out of the, uh, room. Since he, uh, the, this fellow in particular, was spending a lot of time over in Mac Hall, we thought we might just as well move his bed there. So we took his bed over and put it on the steps too in the hall there as best we could. And-

Art Grubbe (00:26:05):
Did you get it right in? Inside?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:26:07):
No, I think we just got to the steps.

Art Grubbe (00:26:08):
Just right at the door. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:26:10):
Yeah. The other thing is we had a- a pajama party in our last, uh, year and or- or one of the years I can remember. I don't know whether it was a [inaudible] last year. Uh, we, uh, raided the Mac Hall and, uh, got right up the steps and into the, on the higher floors of where the girls were. Now, this was at night and, uh, did this, uh, uh ...

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:26:42):
There was all kinds of, uh, consternation on the part of, uh, Mrs. Barber, and, uh, she called the security, which at that time was Charlie Revoz. And, uh, and, uh, Charlie, uh, came in and- and, uh, got, uh, told us to get outa there and, uh, there'd be trouble and so on and so forth. We eventually ... But we had a lot of fun and the girls kind of enjoyed it too. And, uh, we didn't get in any of the rooms of the girls, of course, but we paraded up and down the halls.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:27:21):
And, uh, another time, why, we went to, uh, uh ... Pat Henry had won a ca-, had had a car and he raffled it off. And, uh, we, uh ... One of the members of our year won the car and, uh, we used it go to a dance in Rockwood.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:27:51):
And while there, why, a fellow that, uh, I did a bit of chumming around with of probably the name of Yumchuck uh, from uh, uh, Thunder Bay, uh, area, uh, was a little dissatisfied with the, uh, the number of girls that showed up for the dance. And he showed his displeasure when we were leaving by breaking a, uh, meter, a electric meter on those, installed on the wall of the dance hall.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:28:26):
We, uh, we ran and after that, uh, escapade, why, we ran and got in the car, but the fellow, uh, somebody got the number of the car and traced it to the college. And, uh, we were hauled up before, uh, Dean Sands. And, uh, I'll never forget Dean Sands how- how well he handled this thing. We had to pay for the meter, installing a new meter down in the dance hall, and, uh, he gave us quite a talking to, but that was the end of it. Uh, he didn't, uh, lock us up or anything like that.

Art Grubbe (00:29:05):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:29:05):
The, uh, he just reprimanded us and, uh, I- I always liked Dean Sands. He was, he was, uh, very good with the students, even though with, when you have to think of all the pranks that he had to put up with by his students.

Art Grubbe (00:29:24):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:29:25):
The troubles they used to get into. I think that's all I better mention.

Art Grubbe (00:29:29):
Yeah. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:29:30):
As far as pranks is concerned.

Art Grubbe (00:29:33):
Yeah. Yeah. I think I, earlier, I re- mentioned the, uh, class spirit that was developed at the, within your class, and, uh, maybe you'd like to just mention a few things that the, your accomplishments in that connection.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:29:47):
Well, the- the year was a great year to stick together. Uh, there were 113 in our class when we started, and, uh, uh, I never forget the first day when we started to, uh, organize to elect our year president and so on and so forth. Nobody, uh, uh, it seemed to be there was just a group-

Art Grubbe (00:30:11):
What year is the ... You were mentioning there something about, uh, the dances at, uh, was it a ... Or at least gatherings at the- the time of the Royal Winter Fair.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:30:21):
Yes. We- we would have, uh, uh, all the members would be notified of a, of a class meeting at, uh, the Royal Winter Fair time in ... to be held in the Royal York Hotel. And, uh, we held that. We've held it every year since. Uh, during our, since graduation.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:30:47):
And, uh, uh, I can't tell you was it ... Those rooms are named after the provinces and I can't tell ya exactly what room we, uh, held our meeting in but it was reserved year after year for this meeting in November. And, uh, uh, we would [crosstalk]-

Art Grubbe (00:31:06):
As much as on an annual basis.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:31:08):
On an annual basis.

Art Grubbe (00:31:10):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:31:10):
Uh, and, uh, you'd be surprised the number, though, and their wives would turn up too at that time.

Art Grubbe (00:31:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:31:18):
And, of course, there were always a few stories. And, uh, and, uh, you had to get up and tell what you did for the past year and so on and so forth and what you were working at and so on and so forth.

Art Grubbe (00:31:29):
Yeah. Well, isn't the, was it the Class of '33 that actually had a dance at the Royal?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:31:35):
Yes. Uh, Alph Hill's group.

Art Grubbe (00:31:38):
Aha.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:31:39):
They had a, they had a dance there-

Art Grubbe (00:31:40):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:31:41):
... while we didn't have a dance.

Art Grubbe (00:31:42):
No. But you'd be a part of that.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:31:44):
Well, we could go down in it-

Art Grubbe (00:31:45):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:31:46):
... and so we'd- we'd go around and visit Al's group every once in a while.

Art Grubbe (00:31:50):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:31:50):
Uh, I've gone in and- and met, uh, uh, Dick Potter and these fellows. Uh, uh, Potter or Dick was year '33 and I knew him from the creamery, uh, that he ran in Drayton, Ontario. And, uh, we used to, uh, uh, go down and say hello to the fellows that we knew and, uh ... But, uh, oh, we had a lot of good times in the Royal York Hotel. Uh, they had dances there that were held, I expect the year '33 dances.

Art Grubbe (00:32:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:32:25):
Yeah. Think.

Art Grubbe (00:32:27):
Uh, so yo- you, what I was trying to hi- get you to say was, uh, actually how much money have you raised? You any idea?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:32:37):
Altogether?

Art Grubbe (00:32:38):
Yes.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:32:39):
Oh, I wouldn't begin to tell you. Uh, uh ...

Art Grubbe (00:32:43):
Well, didn't you-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:32:43):
This last year, why, we raised, uh, about $20-some thousand to, uh, refurbish a room, uh, in the old, above the old community hall-

Art Grubbe (00:32:57):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:32:57):
... in Johnston Hall.

Art Grubbe (00:32:59):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:33:00):
Uh, and, uh, uh, we have, um, the, uh ... We supplied the chimes in the, uh, Mem Hall and, uh, helped with the organ there.

Art Grubbe (00:33:18):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:33:18):
And, uh, we, the, uh, Drenter's Collection that was, uh, distributed around through the, those implements that, uh, that represented birds and- and, uh, so on. This was, uh, cost us around, uh, I think it was $8,000 that we paid for that.

Art Grubbe (00:33:38):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:33:39):
Uh, and for those, I think this Drenter's came, was a man that lived in Rockwood, and he used to, uh, forge or, uh, put old implements together in the shape of birds and, uh, et cetera and, uh, or an engine or some kind of a- a plow or something like this. He would get the, uh, wheels off things and make something and it was, uh, there wa- there was, they're around (laughs) on the campus there yet.

Art Grubbe (00:34:11):
Are those there- there at, in the [crosstalk]-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:34:12):
That was the-

Art Grubbe (00:34:13):
... in the pad- uh, paddock of his effort there.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:34:15):
Yes.

Art Grubbe (00:34:16):
I always thought those were ... Well, I didn't know the history of it at all.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:34:18):
Yep.

Art Grubbe (00:34:18):
So that is the history there of those.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:34:21):
Yeah. And, uh, our year, uh, we were approached that college wanted to, uh, uh, some of his collection for, to be put on campus.

Art Grubbe (00:34:32):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:34:33):
And they were wondering if we were interested.

Art Grubbe (00:34:35):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:34:35):
And it cost us about $8,000 to put that in.

Art Grubbe (00:34:38):
Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:34:39):
Uh, another year we supplied the light to the, uh, in front of the, uh, Alumni ...

Art Grubbe (00:34:50):
House?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:34:51):
House on, what, Dairy Lane now?

Art Grubbe (00:34:56):
Yeah, I suppose, what, Dairy Lane now, it's, what? Arboretum Lane or something like that?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:35:00):
Or something like that. It sat on the road to the Arboretum.

Art Grubbe (00:35:02):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:35:03):
But anyway, the Alumni House, why, what is, our year supplied the outside standards and lights-

Art Grubbe (00:35:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:35:10):
... uh, surrounding the, uh, driveway there. And, uh, that was around, uh, $9,000.

Art Grubbe (00:35:18):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:35:19):
And, uh, we did-

Art Grubbe (00:35:20):
So you've almost been doing that on an annual basis.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:35:24):
Pretty well on an annual. Well, we've- we've ... There's, we've supplied pictures. One year we, uh, uh, supplied, bought pictures, uh, originals. And, uh, paintings that were, uh, we gave to the McDonald Art School.

Art Grubbe (00:35:44):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:35:44):
And, uh, this, uh, Frank Chase, uh, the late Frank Chase, uh, who was in the bacteriology department, uh, uh, was the man that got this going. And, uh, we, uh, but I don't know just what, how much that cost.

Art Grubbe (00:36:00):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:36:01):
But it was a fair amount of money too.

Art Grubbe (00:36:03):
So this was, this was actually individual givings from the cla- the class.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:36:07):
Oh, yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:36:07):
You didn't really have any fundraising. That, uh-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:36:10):
Well, a lot of the money came from this from, uh ... Uh, if you donated the, your money to the Alumni fund-

Art Grubbe (00:36:19):
You got to-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:36:19):
Why, you could direct where you wanted it to go.

Art Grubbe (00:36:22):
Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:36:23):
And I would say, well, for instance, on mine I would say, uh, uh, "I'd want my $100 at that time to go to, uh, uh, a class year '38, uh, a, uh, gift."

Art Grubbe (00:36:42):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And, yeah, anniversary fund or whatever you wanna call it.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:36:44):
Yeah. Yes, yes.

Art Grubbe (00:36:45):
Yeah, right.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:36:46):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:36:47):
Well, this is ... I have something that obviously has, uh, has struck me and if there's some-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:36:52):
But then, uh-

Art Grubbe (00:36:55):
Lloyd's brother, uh, Lloyd Mitchell's older brother, uh, what year was he? It's back about- about 33 years, isn't it?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:36:59):
About 33, Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:37:01):
Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:37:01):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:37:02):
He ... (laughs) The thing I remember about him, and- and it actually came out at the annual meeting, uh, of the OAC alumni. He was challenging some motions and he said, "Prof. Baker, always used to do that and now I've gotta do it." So ... (laughing)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:37:17):
Sure. He did.

Art Grubbe (00:37:19):
But, everybody, he was keeping 'em on- on tap as to what motions were acceptable or what- what, uh, weren't in. Where they could come from.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:37:25):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:37:26):
Yeah. Well, that sounds very, very good.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:37:28):
Well ...

Art Grubbe (00:37:29):
What about, uh, did you ever have any particular class of class size or yells or that sort of thing? Or ...

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:37:40):
No, I think we just went to ... We didn't have any one particular wazoo.

Art Grubbe (00:37:44):
Unexpected. Whatever made you yell, though.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:37:46):
And whether it was available out of the year yells, why-

Art Grubbe (00:37:49):
Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:37:49):
... uh, we, uh, we had ... Uh, if I could remember, uh, but I won't be able to tell you anything about that. But they, I expect we had a year, uh, song-

Art Grubbe (00:38:04):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:38:04):
... that we used to sing, but, uh, I can't tell it to you at the present time.

Art Grubbe (00:38:09):
Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. Any particularly, uh, particular rivalries or anything like that that, uh, used to happen between classes and yours in particular?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:38:17):
In, uh, between, uh, classes of one year?

Art Grubbe (00:38:21):
Well, yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:38:22):
Oh, uh, not a great deal that I remember.

Art Grubbe (00:38:28):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:38:28):
I can remember, uh, fights when we would be on the third floor of the administration building and we would have a, uh, uh, throw water, us, out of the, uh, uh, from our window. We'd lean out the window and throw it in the room below, uh, uh, through the window.

Art Grubbe (00:38:50):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:38:51):
And, uh, uh, I can remember standing out one time, uh, and, uh, Rick Richards was just below us. And, uh, we were out in the rounds below and we were firing eggs through their windows to, through their open window. And Rick happened to be standing just in front of one window one time when he caught, we caught him with an egg right square on his forehead, and it dripped right down over his face. (laughs) And he sat down on the floor and laughed away. I can remember that- that, uh, quite well.

Art Grubbe (00:39:27):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:39:27):
And, uh, but one of the pranks that we got into between year.

Art Grubbe (00:39:33):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:39:34):
We, uh, I played on the year rugby team.

Art Grubbe (00:39:39):
But Rick Richards is, was it, was one of your, was a classmate though, wasn't he? Rick Richards?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:39:39):
Oh, yeah. Sure.

Art Grubbe (00:39:39):
Yeah, right.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:39:40):
Rick was a classmate.

Art Grubbe (00:39:42):
Yeah. Yep.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:39:43):
Oh, yeah. He was in the year.

Art Grubbe (00:39:44):
Mmm.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:39:45):
So that was a year fun thing.

Art Grubbe (00:39:48):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:39:49):
We would flood the floors or the odd time of- of some of the rooms and all that.

Art Grubbe (00:39:54):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:39:54):
Pour water into the floors and ...

Art Grubbe (00:39:56):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:39:58):
Uh, and we used to, I think, well, it was, didn't do the floors any good.

Art Grubbe (00:40:03):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:40:04):
To have water in there.

Art Grubbe (00:40:05):
No. Yeah, yeah. Right there. So I rate, um ... You were gonna mention something just then and I cut you off. What, um ... Yeah, well, um, like, uh, wearing appar- apparel was- was a pretty casual thing as far as classes were concerned.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:40:25):
Oh, yeah. We, uh ...

Art Grubbe (00:40:27):
Although the day of the jeans wasn't exactly ... an all-out top.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:40:30):
We didn't have jeans, but we, uh, uh, we ha- we wore, uh, pants and shirts and- and generally, uh, a coat or you- you ... 'Cause it was wintertime most of the time that we were around there, you know.

Art Grubbe (00:40:44):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:40:46):
And, uh, uh, course, uh, uh, I ca- I have pictures of myself, uh, up here and doing work with, uh, uh, in Prof. Blackwood's, uh, group, uh, of surveying.

Art Grubbe (00:41:02):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:41:03):
And, uh, uh, I'm- I'm in a suit out in the fields. I know that.

Art Grubbe (00:41:10):
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:41:10):
And, so, uh, I don't know-

Art Grubbe (00:41:13):
[crosstalk].

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:41:13):
... or I don't remember ever wearing ... We were pretty casually dressed in many cases, I expect, but the, we were well-dr- I think we were well-dre-

Art Grubbe (00:41:25):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:41:26):
I had to appear in class well-dressed.

Art Grubbe (00:41:27):
Yeah. Especially, I mean-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:41:28):
Wasn't, uh, as much, relaxation. Or up to the dressing code as there is now.

Art Grubbe (00:41:35):
Yeah. Course the other side of the coin too is that you always had to wear a jacket, and I can't remember whether there was a collar and tie to the, for the, for the dining room?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:41:45):
Oh, uh, yeah, you ... And I don't remember that either, Art.

Art Grubbe (00:41:47):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:41:47):
Uh, the, uh, whether there was a collar and tie to whether or not [crosstalk].

Art Grubbe (00:41:52):
You can't remember a collar and tie but certainly there was a jacket there.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:41:55):
It was strictly you had to wear a jacket.

Art Grubbe (00:41:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:41:57):
But, uh, we, uh, we generally, uh ... Trying to remember if our fellows were pretty well-dressed.

Art Grubbe (00:42:06):
Mmm.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:42:06):
We, one of the big activities in our year, I can remember one time they- they carried out an auction sale.

Art Grubbe (00:42:15):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:42:15):
Of the whole year. You'd start out with- with maybe a pen and pencil set or something like this, and guys, some of the fellows worked that right up into something fairly big-

Art Grubbe (00:42:25):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:42:26):
... like a radio or- or something like this before the day was out.

Art Grubbe (00:42:29):
Yes.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:42:30):
It was the mo- one of the most fun things I've ever did at college was-

Art Grubbe (00:42:35):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:42:36):
... uh, this- this auction sale that we had amongst the year, uh, members. And you started out with practically nothing sometimes and- and through haggling, why, you sometimes worked it into a fairly good, uh, something quite precious.

Art Grubbe (00:42:53):
But yeah, I- I remember. Uh, you- you were starting to say something about, uh, football or soccer or something a little like that?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:43:01):
Yeah, well, I, uh, I, uh, played on a- a year rugby team and, uh, in my, uh-

Art Grubbe (00:43:08):
That's when you bummed up your knees?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:43:10):
Well, I don't know about that, but-

Art Grubbe (00:43:10):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:43:14):
... I- I didn't have the time to get into sports pretty much.

Art Grubbe (00:43:18):
Yeah. No.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:43:18):
I, uh, I wrestled. I was in the, um, on the wrestling team. Uh, I, uh, I used to have to go out and train. My gosh, we had, we had to be training for that, uh, to get our neck muscles, uh, uh, strengthened and so on. And, uh, the trainer was an Italian, I forget, from, uh, that used to, uh, train us, put us through what you said. I, he'd put us through. This always happened just before going into the dining hall.

Art Grubbe (00:43:53):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:43:54):
And we all, you'd be so upset from doing the exercises that he put you through that you could hardly eat.

Art Grubbe (00:44:02):
Yeah. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:44:03):
I can remember that.

Art Grubbe (00:44:04):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:44:05):
Uh, I didn't stay with wrestling too long.

Art Grubbe (00:44:07):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:44:07):
I- I, uh, it was a pretty rough sport as far as-

Art Grubbe (00:44:15):
Yeah, yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:44:15):
... well, I was concerned.

Art Grubbe (00:44:16):
Well, like I said that, uh, 'cause you've said, uh, you know, I mean, obviously some people worked pretty damned hard at- at putting that buck together, as student labor, stupid labor or stupid student lador- labor used to say, I guess. But, uh, some of the things that ... There was just- just wasn't that much money at home.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:44:34):
Well, I never-

Art Grubbe (00:44:34):
You couldn't do anything.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:44:36):
Well, I never got home once you get and all, to go back to Norwich, there's no direct connections between Guelph and Norwich.

Art Grubbe (00:44:42):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:44:43):
If you ever got there, you went, bummed a ride with Wilford Bishop or Earl Hartley or- or somebody else that was, uh, going down. And that was few and far between also.

Art Grubbe (00:44:54):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:44:54):
Oh, at Christmas times and so on and, uh, the holiday times are up here, we did, uh, work in the barns and so on and threw out manure and, uh, stuff like that.

Art Grubbe (00:45:05):
Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:05):
To earn, uh, s- some money.

Art Grubbe (00:45:07):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:07):
Lots of times I didn't get home at all until-

Art Grubbe (00:45:10):
I suppose in a sense that's, uh, one of the things that, uh, and it was, but it was a part of the times, really, that-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:17):
Oh, yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:45:17):
... that deprived you of, uh, actually directly.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:19):
We didn't feel-

Art Grubbe (00:45:21):
That was your extra-curricular activity, really, wasn't it?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:24):
Yeah. We didn't feel, uh, too different from anybody else as far as that was concerned.

Art Grubbe (00:45:28):
No. No. Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:29):
Uh, the only thing was that when working in the dairy barn, I'll never forget, our toes a little, uh, smelly-

Art Grubbe (00:45:36):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:37):
... from working around the cows and so on.

Art Grubbe (00:45:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:39):
We used to have to hang 'em out the window of our room sometimes to air them off.

Art Grubbe (00:45:43):
(laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:46):
Those were in the days when they put, uh, super-phosphate down in the, in the gutters each day.

Art Grubbe (00:45:50):
Yes. No. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:51):
That stuff really clung to your clo- clothes.

Art Grubbe (00:45:52):
Oh, clothes. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:45:52):
Right. But, uh, yeah. There, we, there wasn't much time spent in, uh, in, uh, frivolty as far as I was concerned. Uh, I wa- I was too tied up with- with, uh, work and when you get up at 5:00 in the morning, that's the way, what we ... The ... Bob Galt and I, year after year, why, we, for the two years that we were working, particularly when we worked in the dairy barn in our first year-

Art Grubbe (00:46:28):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:46:28):
... uh, we were up, er, uh, 5:00 in the morning. And then we'd go back and at night, why, we'd have to go back and do the milking again.

Art Grubbe (00:46:37):
[crosstalk].

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:46:37):
Now, this was hand milking in those years.

Art Grubbe (00:46:37):
Yeah. (laughs)

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:46:38):
This was hand milking.

Art Grubbe (00:46:38):
Right.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:46:41):
But it was nice. I- I enjoyed the work.

Art Grubbe (00:46:44):
But.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:46:44):
You know, I, uh, you were, you were, couldn't help but be a little, uh, extra tired as a result of-

Art Grubbe (00:46:51):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:46:51):
... uh, getting up that early and so on and so forth.

Art Grubbe (00:46:54):
Yeah. And- and was, of course, as long as you were off campus, uh, in a boarding house or something, place like that, why, you probably would be able to get to bed a little earlier than more [crosstalk]-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:47:04):
Oh, yeah. Well, when- when we were back in Alec Grant's place and looking after the barns there, uh, why, we didn't have to get up so early.

Art Grubbe (00:47:15):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:47:15):
Because there was maybe an hour's work each-

Art Grubbe (00:47:17):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:47:18):
... morning or af- uh, night.

Art Grubbe (00:47:20):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:47:21):
We had, uh, Bob Galt had, uh, uh, the quarantined cattle to look after and I had, uh, uh, uh, some more stock over on the other side in the barn on the right-hand side there.

Art Grubbe (00:47:35):
You talk about, uh, where were these barns?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:47:38):
They were about-

Art Grubbe (00:47:39):
The main dairy ber- barns were over on the west side of- of what it now is, uh, well, Garden Street, I guess.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:47:47):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there were two barns, one connected to Alec's house just like that. Was an old, that was the own, old stone farm.

Art Grubbe (00:47:54):
Oh, yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:47:55):
And-

Art Grubbe (00:47:55):
So that would be where? Back where the Arboretum is, abouts? Some place there- there now?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:01):
Yeah. Yeah. It's- it's on the way on, they're still on College. Both those houses are still there.

Art Grubbe (00:48:05):
Oh, yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:06):
The stone houses, one on one side of the road and one at ... The barn on the right-hand-

Art Grubbe (00:48:11):
[crosstalk]

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:11):
... side is gone.

Art Grubbe (00:48:12):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:13):
But the one on ... There is a barn, I believe, on the left-hand side.

Art Grubbe (00:48:16):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:18):
Uh, uh, Harrison used to-

Art Grubbe (00:48:21):
Don't there now. But I remember it being there.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:23):
Yes, it used to be there. I'm not sure. I ... It was, uh, renewed, that barn, I thought, and would probably still be there.

Art Grubbe (00:48:32):
But I'm not ...

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:35):
I know there ...

Art Grubbe (00:48:35):
You- you ... Well, that would be on the, uh, north side of the, er, palace.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:36):
On the north side of the road.

Art Grubbe (00:48:37):
Oh, yeah. Okay. But you think-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:39):
Yeah. The one on the south side of the road is gone.

Art Grubbe (00:48:40):
Yeah. That's the one I was thinking about.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:42):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:48:42):
Right. Yeah, yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:43):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:48:44):
Well, it sounds very good, uh, Jack. I've, I covered the waterfront very excellent, for which I thank you very much.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:48:52):
You're welcome.

Art Grubbe (00:48:53):
Just great. Uh, Jack, we just- just suddenly remembered that we didn't talk about any- anything about your- your career that followed and- and it's on that- that, uh ... (laughs) So, any rate, um, uh, what did, what you, uh, obviously followed in the, uh, dairy option, what you- you, uh, were started out in. Or at least you were part of the- the, uh, the diary option. Uh, uh, you graduated in the, in the dairy option.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:49:21):
I guess the reason I went to the dairy option because, uh, um, there ... I was assured of a position after I graduated.

Art Grubbe (00:49:32):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:49:32):
This was during the Depression and there were positions av- available, and was one of the few options that there were positions. If I'd have taken up horticulture, which I intended to, the, and, do some work, er, to be landscape gardening, there- there wasn't any-

Art Grubbe (00:49:50):
Nothing to be had.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:49:51):
... to be had. So I'd looked at these things and decided that the dairy option was the thing that I had the most experience in and, uh, and this is what I better get at and so on.

Art Grubbe (00:50:03):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:50:03):
So anyway, we, uh, we graduated in the diary option. My first, uh, job after graduation, I was offered three job. I was, uh, uh ... Carnation Milk Company, uh, was on in Elmer. Um, the next one was, uh, field man for, uh, the, um, uh, Skatch- Saskatchewan government in the dairy section there. And I was offered a job in Alberta, uh, in the dairy department there.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:50:37):
Well, I, uh, took the job in the, um, with the Carnation Company. I stayed with 'em four months and, uh, I was ... I liked working with Carnation very well. It was, uh, I was in charge of the porch there, in charge of receiving milk and, uh, I, um, left then.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:51:03):
And I, uh, through Prof. Spruell's recommendations again, uh, I got a job with the, uh, uh, dairy branch, uh, in the province of Ontario. And I took it ahead of Saskatchewan because again the money thing came into play there and I got a little more money in Ontario than I would've in Saskatchewan.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:51:31):
My first, uh, position that I had with the diary branch was a field man, and I was, uh, transferred to the Bellville area, and I, uh, covered the creameries and, uh, and dairy section in that clear to Gananoque. And, uh, um, for, until Christmas time. Then they transferred me back to Guelph here and, uh, for ... because I, uh, they wanted me to teach at the dairy school.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:52:09):
So I taught for the next, uh, 19 years. I wa- was, made Guelph my permanent home. And I had the, uh, Wellington County is my area of, uh, work, uh, uh, when I was not teaching at the dairy school. Sometimes I taught six months of the year there. Sometimes I only taught three months, depending on the numbers that were attending class. We put, uh, through-

Art Grubbe (00:52:42):
Well, those used to be the three-months, uh, course on- on-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:52:45):
On, uh-

Art Grubbe (00:52:46):
Butter making.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:52:47):
Butter making, cheese making, uh, uh, ice cream making. Uh, milk, uh, processing.

Art Grubbe (00:52:54):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:52:55):
Uh, drying of milk and, uh, all this sort of thing.

Art Grubbe (00:53:00):
Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:53:01):
And, uh, they had asked-

Art Grubbe (00:53:02):
But basically there were three months and the, and then but you-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:53:04):
Yes. We had about, uh, 60 students-

Art Grubbe (00:53:07):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:53:07):
... come in there at a time and, uh, they had to have their certificate to make butter-

Art Grubbe (00:53:13):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:53:13):
... to make cheese at that time.

Art Grubbe (00:53:15):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:53:15):
And the only way they could get that certificate is by attending dairy school-

Art Grubbe (00:53:19):
Because the price is right.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:53:20):
... at, uh ...

Art Grubbe (00:53:20):
So you'd have backup, back to back courses of three months, uh, early in the year and then three months following it or something like that. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:53:29):
Yep, yep. But generally, we would start at January the first. I've come off the road in January, and I'd go till the end of, uh, March, and then go back out on the road again.

Art Grubbe (00:53:42):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:53:42):
Well, then, uh, after about 20 years, uh, with that work, why, I made life rather miserable for the head office staff and, uh, I got rather bored with what I was doing. And, uh, I was (laughs) uh, invited to, uh, uh, be part of the, uh, administration staff at the, uh, head office in Toronto. I went in as assistant director of dairying, and, uh, under Jim Baker and, uh, then Clarence Lackner was director. Jim was associate director.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:54:22):
Well, then, uh, uh, later on, why, uh, I became associate director and Jim moved up as dairy commissioner, uh, director of dairying, dairy commissioner and so on. And, uh, I was put in charge of the milk quality program for the province of Ontario by Ed Biggs at this time, who was diary commissioner.

Art Grubbe (00:54:46):
Yes.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:54:46):
And Jim was working under, um, uh, when this was when Ed- Ed first came into the department.

Art Grubbe (00:54:54):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:54:54):
And he was given the job or re-overhauling the regulations in the dairy branch and bringing them all under one branch, the one regulation instead of having several, uh, sections to them.

Art Grubbe (00:55:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:55:11):
And, uh, under that, why, uh, Ed gave me job, uh, was he that gave me the job of charge of the milk quality program for the province.

Art Grubbe (00:55:22):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:55:23):
Well, I enjoyed this work very much. It was, uh, it was a challenge. It was something that needed to be done. Uh, it, uh, there was a lot of spade work that had to be done in it, and, uh, we had to start up a lab to test milk and so on and so forth. Previously, the, anything testing of the milk was done in- in the plants.

Art Grubbe (00:55:44):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:55:45):
Well, the plants, you couldn't get improvement if they were doing them because they needed the business.

Art Grubbe (00:55:52):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:55:52):
And they weren't gonna turn farmers away if, uh, no matter how bad (laughs) their milk was.

Art Grubbe (00:55:56):
Yeah. Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:56:00):
Because and I could only see, the only way I could see that this could be improved really was to take it out of the hands of the plants and put it in the hands of government.

Art Grubbe (00:56:09):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:56:09):
Where you could, uh, regulate the quality of milk as it came into the plants and so on. And it's-

Art Grubbe (00:56:17):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Uh, because out- out of that grew too, the inspection of farm setups.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:56:22):
Yes. That's when, uh, inspection of farms started.

Art Grubbe (00:56:26):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:56:26):
We, the dairy branch hadn't done very little farm inspection up to that time.

Art Grubbe (00:56:31):
Did that start before? Well, was it '66 when the, uh, mik- milk marking board came into the be- into being?

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:56:37):
That marking board came into being. It started before that.

Art Grubbe (00:56:40):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:56:43):
But, uh, uh, the, uh, that gave greater emphasis to it.

Art Grubbe (00:56:48):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:56:48):
Because George McLaughlin was one of the fellows that, uh, wanted, uh, uh, farm inspection too, right?

Art Grubbe (00:56:56):
Hmm.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:56:57):
He cooperated very well with us and, uh, fact is, he wanted ... (laughs) We were doing one full inspection a year of all the farms in an area, and, uh, uh, sending in a report on a farmer. And, uh, and with trouble, farmers who were in the trouble, why, of course, you spent more time with them.

Art Grubbe (00:57:18):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:57:18):
If they needed assistance to get themselves out of, out of a quality problem, why, that's where you spent your time.

Art Grubbe (00:57:25):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:57:25):
But, uh, um, the, uh ...

Art Grubbe (00:57:29):
And, of course, your dairy princess competition kind of, uh ...

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:57:34):
Well, uh, the first dairy I- I was, I, uh ... One of the places that got, uh, me interested in, uh, (laughs) uh, I suppose, milk quality was I wrote Ed Biggs when I was, uh, uh, working here in the, in, still out in the field. And I wrote him and suggested that in order to do milk improve quality, why, we had to, we should have what we called a "Dairy Day." And I suggested we have a Dairy Day.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:58:06):
We held the first Dairy Day. He- he, uh, jumped at the chance, actually. And, uh, he was a great organizer himself.

Art Grubbe (00:58:17):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:58:17):
And I suggested what we do and we had a dairy maid and a dairyman.

Art Grubbe (00:58:20):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:58:22):
And we held the first up here in just, uh, west or east ... Yeah, west of Elma on that, uh, uh, the Isall farm. Uh, I forget the fellow's name now that had, owns that farm, but it's a-

Art Grubbe (00:58:40):
That'd be north of Elma.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:58:41):
It's north of Elma on the Tividale Road.

Art Grubbe (00:58:44):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:58:44):
And-

Art Grubbe (00:58:44):
He came ... That's at, what, uh, not Robertson.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:58:48):
But he had a big herd of- of Holstein cattle and there was, oh, the first three-stall house- housing of cattle at the time. Now, we assisted the farm when- when that Dairy Day was put on.

Art Grubbe (00:59:01):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:59:02):
We supplied the paint to paint his barn. We, uh, uh, did a lot of things like that.

Art Grubbe (00:59:08):
Actually-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:59:08):
And, uh, they ... Not only, uh, in those days, we had the tent where we had this dairy maid and dairyman perform the milking operation and the cleaning up of the equipment for to demonstrate it to the people in the tent-

Art Grubbe (00:59:23):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:59:24):
... who were watching this program. They would also had a, uh, they would commentate. One would commentate while the other one was doing the work. [crosstalk] very well.

Art Grubbe (00:59:36):
That couldn't have been, that couldn't have been the farm that I was thinking of, uh, north of Elm- of, um ... Oh, you say up north of Elma.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:59:40):
Yes.

Art Grubbe (00:59:41):
Okay. No, I was thinking of the, it was a farm that-

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:59:44):
It's- it's not north of Elma. It's right on the Tividale road as you, just before you get to Drayton, uh, the road that goes to Drayton.

Art Grubbe (00:59:50):
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:59:51):
Yeah.

Art Grubbe (00:59:53):
So this all happened pre-'61 then.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (00:59:55):
Oh, yes. This was, uh, this was, um ... Well, it was about that same time that I went into, uh, into Toronto.

Art Grubbe (01:00:05):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (01:00:05):
And, uh, and, uh, uh, became assistant director.

Art Grubbe (01:00:11):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (01:00:11):
But, uh, I had to help with these things and, uh, we held the second one down in, uh, Dairy Day down in- in, uh, near Peterborough. And the third one was held at Kemptville.

Art Grubbe (01:00:26):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (01:00:26):
Well, I never approved that the thing be held at Kemptville. I always wanted them to be held on a farm.

Art Grubbe (01:00:33):
Yeah.

John (Jack) C. Palmer (01:00:33):
Where the thing could be demonstrated to help this particular farmer.