Sandy Warley

Other

Wednesday, November 1, 2000

E. Brubaker

RE1 UOG A1340125

Ed Brubaker (00:00:01):
This is an interview with Professor Sandy Warley, who taught at the University of Guelph for many years. And it's being held in his home on Vanier Drive in Guelph on November 2nd in the year, 2000 for the alumni and action committee of the, um, University of Guelph Alumni Association. It's conducted by Ed Brubaker, uh, today. So Sandy, um, tell us a little bit about your life, where you're from and, uh, and your schooling and what brought you to Guelph.

Sandy Warley (00:00:44):
I perhaps should start by explaining my name. Uh, Sandy is in fact a nickname. My initials are T.K. My name is Thorald Keith. And people in North America think of Sandy as a diminutive for Alexander, uh, in England. That is so in Scotland, but in England, that was not the case. I got the nickname Sandy, because I had bright red hair. So whereas people like Switzer were called red, uh, or ginger, red or ginger.

Sandy Warley (00:01:15):
Uh, I got the name Sandy and it, uh, stuck. So, uh, it's uh, T.K. Warley commonly known as Sandy Warley. I was, uh, born in, uh, 1930 in, uh, East Yorkshire. And, uh, at the, uh, age of, uh, 18 went off into the, uh, first of all, took a two year de- detour and thought I was going to be a dentist and did two years dentistry at the Turner Dental Hospital in Manchester, but quickly, yeah, realized that that was not the, uh, career for me.

Sandy Warley (00:01:54):
And eventually plucked up courage to, uh, to go home and say so to my parents. And, uh, determined that I'd, uh, do what I'd, uh, wanted to do. Uh, I'd been working part-time at weekends and nights and holidays, uh, in, on a horticultural establishment and I wanted to do horticulture. But before I could go off and do a degree in horticulture, I was, uh, snapped up and did, uh, 18 months of, uh, national service, uh, spent mainly in Germany.

Sandy Warley (00:02:30):
When my national service in the army was, uh, finished. I went to the University of Nottingham at, uh, it's school of agriculture, which is locate- located at, uh, Sutton Bonington. Started there in, uh, Sutton is the, uh, old, uh, norse for south. And Bonington was the name of one of the, the large families around there. So it was a village which was owned by the Sutton family at some point in their history.

Sandy Warley (00:03:01):
And the school of agriculture of the University of Nottingham was out at the, what had been the old Midland Agricultural College. So it, in a sense, there was a parallel with OAC, a Midland Agricultural College and being, become associated. Which started off giving short courses and diplomas, uh, eventually, uh, got to the status where it was taken over by a university or became part of a university. Was adopted by a university, the University of Nottingham which was 12 miles, uh, up the road the main university and became degree granting institution.

Sandy Warley (00:03:42):
And started off with three year, and three year ordinary degrees and four year honors degrees and then gradually built up, uh, its graduate program to the point now, when we speak in the year 2000. It's probably the, uh, largest, the most distinguished school of agriculture. It's now called the school of biological sciences that there, uh, that there is in England. In much the same way as the OAC started off as the school of agriculture and experimental art. Then became the Ontario Agricultural College run by a ministry.

Sandy Warley (00:04:19):
And then, uh, with the formation of the university became a founding college of the university and also grew to be the largest and perhaps I think we can claim without due modesty the most distinguished of the, the agricultural faculties, uh, in Canada. And that's an interesting parallel, but with a, with a very substantial difference to which I should refer later on. And I, uh, went there in 1950 and graduated in 1953 with a baccalaureate degree in horticulture. And then essentially did not leave there until 1970, until I came here because I joined the faculty.

Sandy Warley (00:05:09):
Started off as a, uh, as a demonstrator in horticulture, but after three months, uh, was offered a position in the department of agriculture economics at Nottingham at some point of the University of Nottingham. And, uh, did a master's degree, uh, was doing a research project in there and then was taken on faculty, started as an assistant lecturer and then was promoted to lecturer and then was, uh, made a reader, which is a peculiar, uh, rank in the university, British university system.

Sandy Warley (00:05:50):
Essentially you get to a point in your career, where they decide whether you're a professorial material and if you are, you become a reader. And if they think that your career grade is not going to result in a holding of a full chair, then you become a senior lecturer. So it came to the, uh, mid 1960s and I became, uh, a reader in agriculture economics for University of Nottingham.

Sandy Warley (00:06:20):
Now in 1964, I was invited to come and do, uh, run a, uh, a, uh, workshop for Western farm leaders, uh, in Canada. And this was at the time when the, uh, European Community was being formed. And I, I started off in farm management and moved from farm management to marketing, to policy, to international policy. And I was a bit of a local authority on this evolving, common agricultural policy of the European Community and the Canadian farm leaders, Western farm leaders wanted to know about this.

Sandy Warley (00:07:00):
And so there was a, uh, a weeks workshop at Banff for Western farm leaders and they flew me in there and I fell in love. It was in March and there was all that beauty. And there was elk and deer running all over the places, racing out inside the window and these towering mountain, mountains and these wonderful, wonderful people, those Western farm leaders.

Sandy Warley (00:07:28):
They're just such splendid people. Or I found them so that I, I, I counted that as a very important experience. I didn't think anything would come of it. And I did my week conference in Banff and then did a week's lecture tour on my way back. I, uh, lectured to the faculty and graduate students in, uh, Edmonton, Saskatoon, uh, Winnipeg and, uh, Guelph. And I, I was in Guelph for a couple of days. And, uh, after that, got back on the plane and went back to, uh, Sutton Bonington.

Ed Brubaker (00:08:07):
What year was that?

Sandy Warley (00:08:09):
That was 1964.

Ed Brubaker (00:08:10):
In March?

Sandy Warley (00:08:11):
Right. Uh, as a result of that, I got to know the then, that brief visit I of course met Stu Lang, uh, who was then chairman of the department of agricultural economics. And also a fellow called Bob Marshall, who was a faculty member in the department of agricultural economics at Guelph. Time passed and it happened that Bob Marshall, uh, did a visit to England and came and stayed with me a rather nice time.

Sandy Warley (00:08:46):
And Stu Lang was on sabbatical at the University of Newcastle upon time in, uh, in, in 1969 or 1968, '69. And whilst he was there, he came down to Sutton Bonington and stayed with me. We were renewing acquaintances. And that was a very enjoyable experience. Off they go back to, to Guelph. I'm, then lecturing in the fall of 1968, I'm lecturing one day to my students in Nottingham.

Sandy Warley (00:09:19):
And the porter comes and says, "Sir, there's a telephone call from Canada for you. Can you take it?" So I raced off to the porter's office and took this call and it was Stu Lang saying, "Is there any way which you could come during 1969 for a six, nine month period to Guelph, uh, as a visiting professor to fill in for a faculty member, uh, named Brian Perkins, who is leaving on a Cedar project to Columbia?"

Sandy Warley (00:09:53):
And, uh, I had, I had to, to say, "Well, give me a few hours to think about it." Went home and told my wife of this opportunity, talked with my head of department there. And within hours I telephoned Stu Lang back to say, we'd be delighted to come. Had a good experience in 1964. And, uh, I was wanting to write a book at that time. And I thought this six months in, in Canada would give me a, as a visiting professor, would give me a good opportunity to, uh, to do that.

Sandy Warley (00:10:28):
And so I came to, uh, Guelph on the 1st of January, 1969 for a six month sabbatical effectively or leave of absence without pay and, uh, was a visiting professor. And, uh, as it happened during that time, uh, Stu's term of office as chairman of the department, uh, had finished and they were looking for, uh, replacement. And, uh, I suggested certain people in Europe who might be suitable and a couple of those were brought in, uh, to be interviewed, uh, but nothing came of that or of the local candidates.

Sandy Warley (00:11:12):
And then somewhat to my surprise, uh, towards the end of my sixth month period, uh, Rick Richards, uh, who then Dean of the college of agriculture came across to see me and said, "Would you be a candidate for the chairmanship?" And I said, "Yes, I would." And, uh, to cut the long story short. I was offered the position.

Sandy Warley (00:11:34):
And so I, this was mid 1969 and the position, I agreed to take up the position on the 1st of January, 1970. And we went back to Europe to Sutton Bonington cleared up our... Finished off grant students and courses, and those kinds of things then came out here a professor of agricultural economics and, uh, chairman of the department. So that's how I came to Guelph. And when I landed here, I appreciate the course that it was an administrative post.

Sandy Warley (00:12:18):
And so I started in this new role as chairman of a department. I'd never been an, an administrator, I'd been a scholar. Uh, but I, uh, I, I didn't realize that there was a difference between the Canadian and the British model. Uh, in the British model, uh, the chairman of the department or the head of department as the company was, uh, was they had, because he was the leading scholar in the department. And he was expected to lead the department from the front by his scholarly work.

Sandy Warley (00:13:02):
Administration was done in between scholarly work and, and off to the side. And the year I left, uh, Sutton Bonington my then, uh, chairman of the department there, he, uh, published an 800 page, uh, book, finished off two PhD candidates, acted as dean of the college in his spare time. And, uh, was, uh, a very busy lecturer, both on and off campus.

Ed Brubaker (00:13:34):
As well as head of the department.

Sandy Warley (00:13:35):
As well as head of the department. And I thought you could do the same here. And, uh, so I, uh, I continued my scholarly activities, uh, quite a significant teaching load, mainly in the policy, uh, in the policy area, uh, as well as, uh, learning, learning how to be an administrator of a department, which then had, uh, about 18 faculty and, uh, a very significant, uh, graduate student body and undergraduate student majoring in agricultural economics.

Sandy Warley (00:14:13):
The reason I, uh, accept did the, uh, the invitation to be a candidate for the chairmanship of the department was that I could see how very different agricultural economics was in North America and in Canada and in Guelph in particular than what it was back in my own department, it was very much more highly developed in term, in discipline returns.

Sandy Warley (00:14:39):
And there was a, uh, a, a, an era of professionalism, uh, that contrasted markedly with the era of gifted amateurism, which characterized a lot of academic work in the United Kingdom at this time. The end of the 60s, the end of the 70s, not true now, but it was, it was then. So I, uh, I thought I was, uh, I was, uh, going into a better academic environment and was being offered the opportunity to, uh, to perform as an academic in there as well as through the administrative department.

Sandy Warley (00:15:23):
And none of my expectations with respect to the academic quality of the department were ever disappointed. In fact, the department was a good department, uh, things for a time worked in our favor, um, in, in, in ways that led us to become a more important, uh, department than we, uh, were in particular.

Sandy Warley (00:15:49):
The science council of Canada shortly after I arrived, published a, uh, study entitled Two Blades of Cracks, which said that we needed to do things to develop agricultural education in Canada, not be so dependent upon graduate programs in the United States for training our own people.

Sandy Warley (00:16:13):
And more specifically at this age, it's imperative that we introduce agricultural economics and rural sociology at the doctoral level in Canada, so that young Canadians can study Canadian problems in their own universities, rather than doing the, the traditional of the baccalaureate and the masters at Guelph.

Sandy Warley (00:16:34):
And then after Michigan State or Purdue, or someplace like that, and then come back onto faculty. We had a very good master's program. It was a very good master's program. So, uh, it wasn't too difficult for us to, uh, be a prey to, to propose, uh, to design, to propose, uh, a PA- a doctoral program in agricultural economics and Canada accepted.

Sandy Warley (00:17:04):
And, uh, I think you probably first doctoral program in agricultural economics in, uh, in Canada. I'm not certain about that, but I think it probably was.

Ed Brubaker (00:17:13):
What year did you introduce this program?

Sandy Warley (00:17:15):
This was 1972.

Ed Brubaker (00:17:18):
1972, 2 years after you came.

Sandy Warley (00:17:19):
Yeah. Yeah. And there was a long process of appraisal by external examiners, uh, of the faculty and its record and of its potential and of the program, which was proposed. And we, uh, we successfully gone through with that and, uh, and we're, we're empowered to offer a doctoral program. So that was a big step.

Sandy Warley (00:17:49):
I wasn't entirely convinced myself that it was the right step, uh, for this, this reason I could see myself no great problem in having a first class, a world class indeed masters program at Guelph. And then sending out master students into the very best doctoral programs in the United States, where they were warmly welcomed because of the reputation, uh, we had for quality and where they could work on Canadian problems and then come back.

Sandy Warley (00:18:23):
But the temper of the times was we were going to Canadianize the doc- at the doctor level in, in agricultural economics. And we were, uh, successful in proposal.

Ed Brubaker (00:18:37):
How many, uh, students then the first several years got into this doctoral program?

Sandy Warley (00:18:43):
Our target was always to have about 12.

Ed Brubaker (00:18:47):
Throughout the PhD level at any one time?

Sandy Warley (00:18:49):
Right. So that you, in a three year program, you'd be graduating for, four year. And as it happened, we got some students, the very best students, the first students that we had who were amongst our very best were not Canadians. There were, there were a New Zealand, there called Tony Schwatz and, uh, and a, uh, an Australian, uh, Gordon, uh, who were brilliant students and, uh, cut us off to a wonderful start, uh, with, with our, uh, doctoral program.

Sandy Warley (00:19:27):
Uh, the other thing that was happening, uh, was that we were expanding, uh, were able to add faculty numbers, uh, to the partly to, to mount the PhD program, partly because there was distress in agriculture and, uh, agricultural economics and solutions to the agricultural problems were, uh, thought that was being rather urgent.

Sandy Warley (00:19:54):
And so we're, we're adding academics so we had the opportunity of going out and hiring and in the five years in which I was chairman of the department, I think we hired 11 people, not 11 new people cause I lost some and we replaced. But we were always replacing in the context of being able to offer these bright young faculty, the opportunity to work with doctoral students. And, uh, that, that was important.

Sandy Warley (00:20:23):
You don't get the brightest and the best perhaps if you can't offer, uh, the opportunity for them to work with, uh, with, uh, students who were doing, who were in doctoral, doctoral program. So that was good. We had a PhD and we're hiring new faces and then a disaster struck from my point of view and to a degree to the departments, uh, uh, uh, to some damage to the department. Uh, we entered into a period of controversy, which probably took a decade or more to unravel and for the, uh, the position of the department, the preeminent position of the department, uh, to be restored by others, not by me.

Sandy Warley (00:21:20):
And there were essentially three contra- controversies. Um, one was the question of how to deal with the agricultural distress that there was at the end of the 1960s. And the first couple of years of the 1970s, uh, the, uh, second was a particular, the, the controversy that surrounded a particular study we did on the tobacco industry and how that was. And that led into a longer running controversy about our attitudes towards supply management in agriculture.

Sandy Warley (00:22:08):
And these three were linked. You recall that at the end of the 1970s, that there was, uh, deep distress amongst crop agriculture. Prices will allow land values were falling. People were losing their farms. Something had to be done about it. Two things were done a- as always, you start to you, you establish committees to look at these things. And there was established a federal task force in agriculture, uh, which consisted, of, uh, four people.

Sandy Warley (00:22:45):
One of whom was Ralph Campbell, who had been the head of department of agricultural economics at Guelph before we went off to Scarborough. Now there was Clay Gillson from, uh, Manitoba. The third one was from outta the business school, uh, at Hamilton and the fourth one McFarland was the head of department of agricultural economics at McGill.

Sandy Warley (00:23:11):
They brought in a report, uh, on the future of agriculture, uh, and, uh, essentially recommended am I going on it too, too much later, uh, essentially recommended an a, a market oriented approach to agriculture. Said there were too many farmers, there were too many small farmers that the small farmers couldn't make a living at the kind of prices that were being experienced and that were being expected.

Sandy Warley (00:23:46):
They, what they needed was more technology and more capital and growth. Their solution was adjustment. In Ontario, there was established the special committee on farm income for Ontario chaired by the deputy minister of agriculture the distinguished alumnus Everett Biggs. Uh, and representing the agricultural establishment, the farm organizations and the agricultural establishment of, uh, the farm level, uh, in Ontario and their recommendation was radically different.

Sandy Warley (00:24:23):
They brought out a report, uh, called the challenge of abundance, which recommended wholesale supply management as a, uh, as a solution to the, uh, to the farm problem. That if the problem was indeed over abundance, then the way to cure low prices and low farm income was to reduce the abundance by controlling supplies. And they had the sense to see that you can only control if you control the supply of one commodity, you necessarily had to do it for all related commodities.

Sandy Warley (00:24:57):
So it was this, it was a, a, a broad based wholesale approach to, uh, introducing supply management into the agricultural industry in a way, which they said falsely was characteristic of manufacturing, uh, industry. So you had these two contrasting views, one produ- uh, one, uh, promoting the federal task force, promoting adjustment and market orientation, and the other produ- uh, recommending comprehensive supply management.

Ed Brubaker (00:25:36):
Did you, uh, sit on Everett Biggs' committee?

Sandy Warley (00:25:40):
No, I wasn't here.

Ed Brubaker (00:25:41):
You weren't.

Sandy Warley (00:25:42):
They pub- they published at the end of 1969 just as I arrived.

Ed Brubaker (00:25:46):
Oh, yeah.

Sandy Warley (00:25:47):
So the challenge of abundance landed on my desk at about the day I arrived.

Ed Brubaker (00:25:51):
(laughs).

Sandy Warley (00:25:52):
But of course, as the new chairman of agricultural economics at the University of Guelph in the province of Ontario, I was asked to comment and essentially asked to choose. And without hesitation, I chose the federal task force approach of market orientation and, and adjustment and warned about the dangers, which were already apparent in the milk industry, the dangers of supply management. And particularly, um, supply management on an industrywide scale, uh, such as we were being proposed by the special committee on, uh, farming.

Sandy Warley (00:26:32):
And this brought us into distribute. Here we were an institution which only six years before had been part of the ministry, which was speaking out in opposition to a policy, which was being promoted by the deputy minister through the report. The special committee of the special committee on farm income and which the then minister of agriculture Bill Stewart had spent his life trying to create.

Sandy Warley (00:27:01):
So we got time to distribute immediately in the public, on the pub, on public platform, by pointing out all the, uh, dangers that existed in the, an approach, which would effectively turn agriculture into a public utility whereby the means of production would be privately held. But all the central decisions about what would be produced, who would produce it, how much would be produced and how much each person would produce of that total. That seemed to me a model for, for agriculture, which was, had many undesirable characteristics.

Sandy Warley (00:27:45):
And I said, so. Now I'm a Yorkshireman and JB Priestly, one of the most famous of the Yorkshireman, uh, once referred to the remorseless candor of Yorkshire utterance. And I tend to call a spade a bloody shovel. I didn't mix, I didn't mince my words, uh, when, uh, when asked about the, uh, my views on these two contrasting futures, uh, for agriculture. So we're off to a bad start at the professional level, right there with the public sector.

Ed Brubaker (00:28:22):
And with two very outspoken people on the other side, the honorable William A. Stewart and Everett Biggs both who, who spoke out at length.

Sandy Warley (00:28:32):
Yes, yes.

Ed Brubaker (00:28:33):
And were good speakers.

Sandy Warley (00:28:34):
Yes. And, uh, and, and, uh, came from a point of view, which I found, uh, alien and far. Both in terms of, uh, what was economically desirable, but also in political terms. You know, I really hadn't understood as an Englishman, just what was the nature of government in Canada? And I, I understood the Yorkshire, the, the English counties, but I didn't really understand the powers that the Canadian provinces had. And I remember being at a, uh, black Creek pioneer village talking about this to an evening meeting and Dick Hillard, who was the, uh, who became the deputy minister after Everett Biggs.

Sandy Warley (00:29:18):
Uh, Dick Hillard, uh, challenged me, challenged my view and said, "But it's not in the interest of Ontario." And that took my breath away. And I remember saying to him, "But Mr. Hillard, that I didn't come here to be an Ontario. I came here to be a Canadian. And I'm trying to think of what's good for Canada. Not what's good for Ontario." He said, "Young men, you have a lot to learn." My God he was right.

Ed Brubaker (00:29:47):
(laugh).

Sandy Warley (00:29:48):
We have a Hillard Award in the OAC Alumni Foundation I wish will give to distinguish the extension people. You may be recipient. Uh, that was, that was one, uh, thing that changed the nature of the relationship within the department, between the faculty, because some faculty, Mary McGregor had been the chief economist of the challenge of abundance, the report. And Bob Marshall had worked to create the, uh, the milk marketing board and other economists were liberal to small L like me.

Sandy Warley (00:30:36):
And so we had conflict within the department between the, or descent between the professional, agricultural economist in the department. It changed the relationship between the department and other departments in the college, because here we were attracting controversy to OAC and other departments weren't happy about it. And it changed the relationship of the college and the ministry, because whereas it had been a fraternity and I didn't understand this.

Sandy Warley (00:31:11):
And whereas the tradition was that of public servants. And I didn't understand that. Here we were taking a stance, which was interpreted as being against the, the wishes of the minister and the ministry. And therefore likely not in the best interests of the college. That was very difficult. It got worse in 1972 and 1973 building on some work, which a graduate student had done, who published a report on the Ontario tobacco industry.

Sandy Warley (00:31:48):
And we published this report, uh, under the OMAF program, OMAF if you recall used to fund a program of research at the Ontario agricultural college and University of Guelph. And within that program, you chose what projects you did. You, you, you wanted to do according to your best judgment of what was important and critical or likely to be so. The tobacco report said, "It really makes no economic sense to limit supply of tobacco when you are an exporting country of tobacco and only control 2% of world supplies."

Sandy Warley (00:32:33):
You only control price. You only control output when you can control prices. And at the margin, we couldn't control prices on world markets by limiting Ontario production. And what we're doing was, was, uh, reducing the sales in world markets and up by artificial means of a product, which we were very good at producing. We ought to be producing more.

Sandy Warley (00:32:59):
And the subtext of that was that the guys who were running the supply management program had a cozy little shop going of their own and were quite content to produce for the domestic market, which was protected and yielded a high price and some small quantity or smaller quantity than we thought as they were at the, at the back. And in, by controlling the output and production of this crop.

Sandy Warley (00:33:29):
Uh, they've driven up quota values, tobacco land values to enormous height. We published this report there in all innocent with the house colors and with an acknowledgement to the Ontario ministry of agriculture that had funded it, all hell broke close.

Sandy Warley (00:33:50):
Soon as it was released, it was reported in the press. As soon as it, it, the press, the directors of the tobacco marketing ball went to see Bill Stewart in his office the next day, very next day. Uh, [inaudible name] who was then the executive assistant to Bill Stewart said, "Bill Stewart almost had apoplexy.

Ed Brubaker (00:34:14):
(laugh).

Sandy Warley (00:34:16):
They had to pull him down off the roof. He was, he was almost apoplectic and his immediate reaction was, "These buggers at Guelph are not going to publish that kind of stuff with my money. What the hell is going on that they're able to publish this kind of research results with money that we are providing to Guelph under the research contract, cut them off, cut them off."

Sandy Warley (00:34:47):
And that was his, that was his order to cut off all which were running about quarter of million dollars. A lot of money in those days, cut off all the OMAF funding, agricultural economics research at the Ontario agricultural college. That represented three, two, three positions in, in our department. That of course would've had a devastating effect on morale. So we're trying to rescue the position.

Sandy Warley (00:35:16):
Uh, I think Switzer had become dean by this time, uh, Bill Tossell was the associate dean and, uh, guy who was head of our [inaudible] John Archibald. So John Archibald comes out to Guelph to find out what they, well, first of all, they wanted to know what the agricultural economist had been doing. They had really known under, under, under this loose contractual arrangement. What had we been doing to justify this money? Why shouldn't they cut it off at the, at the, uh, [inaudible] and insisting on the different relationship, uh, in the future?

Sandy Warley (00:36:02):
Uh, the, the outcome was that they cut, I think $150,000 out a $250,000, uh, budget and, uh, give Bill Tossell, uh, and, and John Archibald their credit that they sort of held the minister off from cutting us off in entirety, which wouldn't have been good, cause I would've gone public with the [inaudible]. Um, and, uh, but they also insisted that the future, any project with a policy implication done in agricultural economics had to have prior consent to the ministry.

Sandy Warley (00:36:51):
And that was the start of the movement, which took 30 years from program funding of research at the University of Guelph to what we have today, which is project funding. Now, every project is you have to bid on projects effectively and that was the start of it. And that was a very, very anxious time. And it was a very damaging time to the department, was the trauma on me.

Sandy Warley (00:37:23):
Some of my colleagues said, "You should never have published it." Some of my colleagues said, "You should have, uh, at least been a little bit more politically sensitive. You should have understood the relationship between OAC and the ministry and you should have gone and shown them a draft before you published it. And then if they didn't like it, which they wouldn't, you shouldn't have published it."

Sandy Warley (00:37:51):
And, uh, and, uh, uh, some of my colleagues said, "If this is, is the kind of environment in which we are going to be asked to work, and this is not a scholarly environment and this is not one something I want." And we lost some of our best people. Uh, Ag-Canada was expanding its agricultural economics and people like Bruce [inaudible name] and Brian Perkins two of the best economists we had and Jerry Trent, they, uh, went off to Ag-Canada rather than stay or returned to the department of agricultural economic.

Sandy Warley (00:38:33):
And there's this incident is a very great political significance in the life of the development of the University of Guelph. Cause it got as far as the president's office, Bill Winegard and Bill Winegard said to them, if you are going to deal with the university instead of a college of your own, then you are going to have to expect that periodically the independent researcher, faculty will come up with answers that you don't particularly like. And Bill, I never spoke to bill about it until probably 20 years later. But Bill said to me that was the first test of whether we were in fact, a university.

Ed Brubaker (00:39:22):
An independent university.

Sandy Warley (00:39:23):
An independent university, an independent university, where, where a true, a true university where academic freedom was, uh, not only came for the granted, but it was prized and treasured and defended at all, at all, all possible costs.

Sandy Warley (00:39:42):
Now of course it wasn't the university at all as a whole, that was, that was being asked. It was really OAC, which was then still is and always has been in a sense the most vibrant college at the university. It was whether the OAC was going to be a genuine university faculty. So, uh, that was a, a very traumatic time for me. Uh, I had about six months when I, it was perhaps the most miserable period in my life.

Sandy Warley (00:40:19):
Cause I was handling this, this hot coat and I was having to wrestle with a fundamental problem of academic freedom. Was I interested in being, I, I had to make a decision about my own future. Was I interested in the, what I come from, the European or the traditional model of a university. Where what I call, not just academic freedom, but the expectation that you will serve as a loyal intellectual opposition.

Sandy Warley (00:41:04):
You will, you are expected to function as a loyal intellectual. That's what I come from was that what I was going to find at Guelph. Or was I going to have to be head of a department, chairman of the department, a member of the department where you had to trim your sales to the political whims of your pay masters with whom you had a historical room.

Sandy Warley (00:41:30):
Who, which was staffed by people who've been graduates of the institution, which are all one big family and, and where you were, you were not expected to rock the boat and, and create a difficulty. So I quickly made up my mind that I, uh, was not going to continue as chairman. I was not going to take a second term. I don't think they would've offered me a position, but I, I, I, I, I determined that when my term as chairman was over, that was going to be it.

Sandy Warley (00:42:07):
And, uh, furthermore that I would never have myself personally take a dollar of from money for the rest of my career at Guelph however, however long that, uh, launch. And, uh, during that time, of course I, uh, was offered, uh, other jobs, uh, as assistant deputy ministers in the federal government. And in the one of the provincial governments had to look at their, I thought those have been no better than what I was, uh, wrestling with at Guelph. Perhaps even worse when you a public servant, cause at least I, uh, had the ability to get out in public platform.

Sandy Warley (00:42:46):
So that was the second thing that, uh, went wrong. The third thing was that, uh, they started to promote in Ontario supplier management in a, in a big way. And you recall that we went from having supplier management in milk. We had a, we tightened up the, uh, system of supplier management in milk made national dairy, had made national dairy, extended it to eggs and then chicken and then, uh, turkeys, or I forget the order of it now.

Sandy Warley (00:43:22):
And there was talk about supply and management in the beef industry, there was talk about supply management in our industry. And I became deeply immersed, uh, in this debate. And smoke out against not supply management as such and not marketing boards as such, but in the way in which they were operating them, both at the provincial level and at the national level.

Sandy Warley (00:43:49):
At the national level what I objected to was the, uh, the bulkinization of the Canadian market in a way which gave each little province each share of national output and nothing, nothing could change by one 10th and 1% their rightful allocated share, which was not the way in which to run a country.

Sandy Warley (00:44:15):
And at the, uh, at the, uh, at the local level, uh, I, I objected very much to the consequences of the way in which these financial systems were being operated. And my objections were the first two were of no consequence at all. Farmers were making too much money. How did I know this?

Sandy Warley (00:44:41):
Because quota values were at these extraordinary things. And secondly, consumers were paying too much. And I didn't really care about that. I mean, that's a matter of the farmer's conscience and consumers were having their pick, pockets picked, but only by a little amount, a small amount really didn't matter.

Sandy Warley (00:45:00):
But what they were doing to the industry, uh, mattered a great deal. They were turning this industry. These in, these supplier and management industries into public utilities, they were making them wards of the state in the sense that the welfare of the existing producers with entirely dependent upon the, uh, goodwill continued goodwill and acquiescence of government in, in what they were doing.

Sandy Warley (00:45:29):
They were crea- generating these high motor values, which were barriers to entry to my students, trying to get into the egg industry, they needed a quarter of million just to buy the quota, never mind to buy a farm. Uh, there were barriers to entry to my students trying to get into the industry. And if they found the money to get into the industry and buy their way in by buying quota, then they were a high cost industry in perpetuity and were uncompetitive forevermore international. And, uh, I have to say I, I've been in principle, right.

Sandy Warley (00:46:10):
And in practice wrong. Uh, I always told my students that these extraordinary quota values, which were, which were the evidence of excessive pricing, uh, couldn't possibly last and that they should be very careful about going into these industries and investing these tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in quotas. And surprisingly the, the supply and managed industries have had sufficient, uh, political influence to maintain them for 30 years and quota values have now gone up. They've consistently gone up-

Ed Brubaker (00:46:48):
In that, but-

Sandy Warley (00:46:49):
But it still remains the, the case, uh, that the existence of the quota values does mean that you have a high cost industry since they have to be purchased by the second and all subsequent generations. And that these industries then by definition become opponents to free trade. And that was a fourth area of controversy, which I got into, uh, as I, uh, after I left the championship.

Sandy Warley (00:47:17):
And as we continued to do this very extensive extension, uh, row, which is a fine tradition of OAC, because I soon found myself caught up in the debates about free trade and uh, was an advocate of free trade. And of course, pointed to the supply and management industries as being opponents of free trade as they are to this day.

Sandy Warley (00:47:40):
So here we are, again, going into another round of, uh, negotiations in which, uh, the competitive sectors, the greens are seeds, red meat sectors of, uh, Canadian agriculture want free a trade, less subsidization. And they're held back to some degree by the national imperative of defending the interest of the supply managed commodities, this which, this is what has diminished Canada's influence in international circles. And of course is, uh, diminished our influence in particularly in the Cairns group that have come first in agriculture negotiation.

Ed Brubaker (00:48:21):
The Cairns.

Sandy Warley (00:48:22):
Cairns group, there is a group of smaller exporting countries.

Ed Brubaker (00:48:26):
Yeah.

Sandy Warley (00:48:26):
It's the name of the place where they first met, uh, in the 1980s in Australia and Canada was at one time, a very active and influential member there, but at the end of the last negotiations, Uruguay Round, effectively cast us out because we're not, uh, we're speaking out in two sides of our mouth. Free trade and, and reductions of subsidies except for the supply and management industries, which are a particular burden for us to, uh, to bear as a country. But not for the producers involved. They've been the source of great wealth and considerable prosperity and stability.

Sandy Warley (00:49:12):
So I suppose you'd add that, uh, that, that, uh, my advocacy in support of free trade, uh, as a fourth area in which I had some difficulties with the minister of agriculture. And that, that first five year period, and then subsequently in my discussions and criticisms of supply and management as they were operating, not in principle, but as they were operating and my, uh, my advocacy of a free trade solution for realizing the full potential of the Canadian agri-food system.

Sandy Warley (00:49:50):
Uh, those continued to put me in conflict with, uh, with the ministry to some degree and, uh, create difficulty between, uh, for the college. Freeman McEwen once said to me, "I have two piles of letters on my table, one praising Warley and one criticizing him. And as long and saying, I must get rid of him. And as long as the first pile is, is taller you're all right." Um, but of course it did bring all this brought home to me the, uh, the importance of the, of the institution of tenure in the university system.

Sandy Warley (00:50:36):
Because if it had been in 1962, rather than in 1972, I should no doubt have been out of the door rather quickly. But they, uh, I was able to continue and I stayed of course in Guelph, cause it did a plan institution. Uh, and, uh, continue to do mainly teaching and didn't, uh, take any OMAF money, uh, for, uh, research and, uh, did a lot of extension work and, uh, was able to do this from a, a, a very good base in which to their credit for dean, uh, found me a difficult character. Because they come trouble that they raised outside the institution, but who, uh, defended me and supported me [inaudible name].

Sandy Warley (00:51:32):
Clay Switzer, Freeman McEwen and towards the end of my career [inaudible]. But it's, it's, it's very interesting because my problems arose. There's a paradox. My problems arose because of the close relationship between the university, the industry and the government, the department of government responsible for the agri-food industry. And it was because I was disturbing established thought or preferred policies in there that I was in controversy, in a controversial position.

Sandy Warley (00:52:19):
And unwittingly and unwillingly, um, creating difficulties for my colleagues, for my department and for my college and of course for the university as a whole. And yet, and this is the paradox I came to see that, that relationship between the industry, the university and government is a model of what we need if universities are going to be relevant to the life of the, of the community.

Sandy Warley (00:52:55):
It's just that you've come to oo arrange things that you maintain academic freedom to express views that are not well received, at a moment in time. Time tends to cure or bring people around to change their thoughts. But at a moment in time, it can be, uh, very difficult.

Sandy Warley (00:53:20):
So the, the relationship that the OAC has to OMAFRA and to the industry is a close one. And in, in historically I think a stratifying one in my area applied social science is agricultural economic, particularly in the public policy area. It's been a wonderful relationship in the, what used to be neu- ethically neutral or politically neutral areas like crop science or engineering or plant sci, animal science and, and those kinds of things.

Sandy Warley (00:53:58):
But there wasn't, there wasn't at one time, uh, much in the way of controversy. Things have changed now with all the concerns about, uh, production practices and, uh, environmental degradation and the whole, uh, controversy about genetically modified organism. Other departments are now finding that they're, uh, having to, to deal with, uh, the existence of descent, uh, between the three parties who, who form this said this intrinsically productive and beneficial and admirable partnership.

Ed Brubaker (00:54:43):
Sandy, in your viewpoint now, looking back a bit on this. Does all this, uh, con- controversy, did it strengthen the university? Did it strengthen the faculty? Did it, uh, strengthen the influence the university has, or did it weaken it?

Sandy Warley (00:55:03):
It created, uh, difficulties in evolving a new relationship, but at the end of the day, I think it strength, strengthened the university as a university. Because when you examine your cell, when you're in the university and you examine your cell in the context of these external controversies you've gotta say, "Yes, Michael, but that's what would form." We're there to be independent scholars to be advocates of the truth as we see it.

Sandy Warley (00:55:31):
And as we, uh, as, as we perceive it, and no matter how difficult it is, it's, it's this, this notion of a loyal intellectual opposition in public policy matters is a fundamental role of the university. And we came to embrace. Now you can do it diplomatically, or you can do it less diplomatically. And I don't think I was terribly diplomatic in the way in which I handle it.

Ed Brubaker (00:55:58):
You-

Sandy Warley (00:55:59):
But the doing of it, the doing of it is now accepted across the university. Indeed, other colleges in the university, other faculties in the university, uh, would, uh, would despise the, uh, the, uh, faculty of the Ontario Agricultural College, if they were not seen to be and were not in fact independence [inaudible].

Sandy Warley (00:56:23):
But you can get your difficulties. And the genetically modified organisms as, uh, has, has been one in which, uh, again, an individual faculty member has found herself in, uh, of position to the established view within the college younger than the industry and as say, suffered in the consequence.

Ed Brubaker (00:56:46):
Uh, you were just 10 years ahead of your time.

Sandy Warley (00:56:48):
Uh, 20.

Ed Brubaker (00:56:50):
20 years ahead of your time, yeah.

Sandy Warley (00:56:52):
25 years [crosstalk] 25 years ahead of my time.

Ed Brubaker (00:56:54):
And yet, uh, my time not too long ago, Rob McLaughlin was publicly criticizing a crop scientist, uh, for her comments on this-

Sandy Warley (00:57:04):
That's precisely-

Ed Brubaker (00:57:05):
Genetically modified, uh, corn. I think it was.

Sandy Warley (00:57:08):
That's precisely my point that Rob would say that he didn't criticize her, that he made a, a, uh, a, uh, a, he used a rather unfortunate phrase in describing her position. Uh, but it, it's exactly the same situation in which they accepted wisdom within the agri food industry is that genetically modified organisms are safe and should be pursued and are the source of all wellbeing, which I happen to believe personally.

Sandy Warley (00:57:43):
And in individuals hand out against them, unfortunately, that individuals was defended by the university and her right, indeed her responsibility, to say it was reaffirmed.

Ed Brubaker (00:57:57):
Good. Sandy, can you recall any time or times when your dean jumped on you or criticized you?

Sandy Warley (00:58:08):
Not at all? No. They, uh, let me know that they were having difficulties with the correspondence that they would, uh, uh, would get from high rate farmers or others demanding that to get rid of me. Uh, but they never ever gave me anything less than a 100% of, uh, of support.

Ed Brubaker (00:58:29):
And that encouraged you?

Sandy Warley (00:58:31):
Uh, no, not, I would've been discouraged if it had been otherwise, but it's what I expected. I mean, there are deans of colleges of a university and, uh, they must be the guardians of academic freedom. Uh, our excellence. I remember one occasion when, uh, when, uh, things get mangled, you know, out in the country and, uh, Freeman McEwen and Dean Freeman McEwen rang me one day and said, "Did you call farmers welfare bums?"

Sandy Warley (00:59:05):
And I said, "No never, no used that phrase at all." And okay. And he hung up and I thought about it for an hour and I rang him back. So I didn't call them welfare bums, but I did say that the supply and managed industries have become wards of the state. "That's it?" He said, so presumably he rang the complaining farmer and said, "Well, he didn't say you're a welfare bum, you're a ward of the state." And some farmers don't mind being wards of the state.

Ed Brubaker (00:59:36):
If they make money.

Sandy Warley (00:59:37):
Right. But, uh, whether that's a fact that you want for the industry as a whole is, uh, that's what we have elections about.

Ed Brubaker (00:59:48):
Yeah. Sandy, uh, a little bit about your personal life now. Uh, you're from New Yorkshire. And, um, when did you get married and was she, uh, a girl from New Yorkshire and tell us about your children and so on.

Sandy Warley (01:00:01):
Uh, we got married, uh, couple of years after I, uh, graduated and, uh, I graduated in 53. We married in 55 and now she's not a Yorkshire girl though she speaks English with a Yorkshire accent, but that's because she learned it from me, she's German born. And we met while I was the student at the, uh, university.

Sandy Warley (01:00:24):
And, uh, she was working in the refactory and didn't speak much English come from Germany to have this. And so I had to learn Germany, some German, uh, having been in the army in Germany and were able to communicate and we used to call me in. So that's how they say the rest is history. We met in that way when were students and employees and married in '55 and, uh, been married now for 45 years.

Ed Brubaker (01:00:54):
45 years.

Sandy Warley (01:00:55):
Yes. We have two children. Uh, my eldest, uh, is a boy and he, uh, took a, they, the two children were in their early teens of course, when we came in 1970. One would be 14, the other 12. Uh, my oldest, uh, is the son Steven. Uh, he went to Western, uh, from, uh, Centennial High School here in Guelph. And did a degree in economics.

Ed Brubaker (01:01:30):
Western University.

Sandy Warley (01:01:31):
Western University in London.

Ed Brubaker (01:01:31):
In London?

Sandy Warley (01:01:31):
Yes.

Ed Brubaker (01:01:31):
Yes.

Sandy Warley (01:01:35):
And, uh, as soon as he graduated there took a job with General foods in sales and worked his way up in the General Foods organization. And then General Foods was bought by Kraft Foods. He worked his self, his way up, uh, even hiring the Kraft organization. And at the present time he's living in Vienna and is, uh, the general manager for Kraft International Romania.

Sandy Warley (01:02:06):
So he runs all Krafts, uh, Romanian food confectionary operations. He lived a, uh, before that he was vice president for sales, for Kraft International in central and Eastern Europe, and was responsible for the sales forces in 14, uh, countries in, uh, Central and Eastern Europe and North Africa and the Middle East.

Sandy Warley (01:02:32):
He has a more stable life now in the sense that he's in an office most of the time, rather than an airplane. Uh, but, uh, he's doing very well. And, and he's getting this, uh, experience, the general manager, which he'll take in beyond sales into marketing and human resources, the finance into governmental relations.

Sandy Warley (01:02:57):
No doubt fit in for higher things. And he, uh, has a housing brush off, which is in the Kalbelia Mountains in Romania which is where the factory is. He has a house alongside his office in Bucharest in the capital of Romania. And he has a, uh, a nice apartment right in the center of Vienna. He has two children and the children and his wife are at home in Vienna and he comes sleep commutes each weekend back to, uh, Vienna to.

Ed Brubaker (01:03:32):
So are the children learning German?

Sandy Warley (01:03:34):
Oh, yes.

Ed Brubaker (01:03:35):
Very fluent in German, other languages?

Sandy Warley (01:03:37):
Yes. Uh, in fact they have, uh, three languages, uh, English course. And before he went to Kraft International, he was, uh, uh, director of sales, uh, Kraft Eastern Canada, living in Montreal. So they speak French as well. So they have English, French, and German. And, uh, that's going to extend them in good standing.

Ed Brubaker (01:04:01):
It sure will.

Sandy Warley (01:04:03):
They're in, uh, an, an international school, both in an international school in Vienna and, uh, living in that kind of life. It's a very good experience for two young teenagers.

Ed Brubaker (01:04:17):
But they don't speak English with the Yorkshire accent.

Sandy Warley (01:04:19):
No, they don't. They don't.

Ed Brubaker (01:04:19):
You couldn't influence them that much.

Sandy Warley (01:04:23):
No that depends upon how, how old you are when you can. I was sufficiently elder in the need to a sufficient not to lose the accent. My two teenage children were speaking like Canadians within two days of arriving in 1970. And my daughter has also become an academic. She, uh, uh, did a, uh, a baccalaureate in English at, uh, at Guelph.

Sandy Warley (01:04:50):
And then a master's degree, and then a PhD in Canadian literature at Alberta. And she's now a prophet, the University of Waterloo, the department of English, a professor of Canadian language. We're very pleased. We see her of course, we don't see the others.

Ed Brubaker (01:05:06):
Is she married?

Sandy Warley (01:05:07):
No, she was and is now divorced.

Ed Brubaker (01:05:10):
Any children there?

Sandy Warley (01:05:12):
No children there, fortunately two children in, in Vienna.

Ed Brubaker (01:05:16):
Yeah. It's nice to see your children do well.

Sandy Warley (01:05:19):
Yes, it is.

Ed Brubaker (01:05:20):
And go ahead.

Sandy Warley (01:05:21):
Yeah, but of course, with the grandchildren living in Vienna, uh, you, you're not part of their lives in the way that you would be if they were living closer, but then we communicate by email, but it's not the same as, uh, as, as having a one on one relationship.

Ed Brubaker (01:05:38):
And do you and your wife get to see them once in a while? Do you go over or?

Sandy Warley (01:05:43):
Um, Anita has been, uh, to see them and she's going again, uh, shortly after Christmas, that possibly in the spring. Uh, but they're in a, an old house. They have an apartment in an old house that once belonged to Schubert and, uh, Mozart drank coffee in the restaurant on the ground floor.

Sandy Warley (01:06:06):
But there are 62 steps up there and I have multiple sclerosis, so I'm not, uh, very agile and I couldn't manage the stairs in their apartment block. And if I was there, I should be holding them back much of the time. So they come and say me, I was 78 age in August and on the night before my birthday, unbeknownst and unannounced to me, my son appeared at that window. He flew in from Vienna just to be with me on my birthday.

Ed Brubaker (01:06:39):
Isn't that wonderful?

Sandy Warley (01:06:41):
Yes. It is. Very loving thing to do.

Ed Brubaker (01:06:41):
Yeah, yeah.

Sandy Warley (01:06:41):
Appreciated it.

Ed Brubaker (01:06:45):
When did your health begin to deteriorate a little bit?

Sandy Warley (01:06:48):
I, uh, I was living a crazy life in, uh, 19, in the 1970s lecturing and not all over, all over, uh, North America, but also around the world. And I, uh, went to a New Zealand to a weekend convent. I left here after classes on the Wednesday. Was it a two-way conference in New Zealand? And, uh, was back here teaching on the following Thursday, having then flown 28,000 miles or something like that.

Sandy Warley (01:07:24):
And a few days after I, uh, got back from that, I, uh, blacked out and collapsed, I thought I'd had a stroke, which wouldn't have surprised me living that kind of, uh, life. But, uh, after a, uh, one or two other episodes of that character, it was diagnosis as being multiple sclerosis. So I was, uh, first affected in 1978 and definitively diagnosed in 1988, but I've been very lucky.

Sandy Warley (01:07:55):
Uh, many people, it depends where the, uh, plaques are on your central nervous system as to what the effects are going to be the physical and other effects are going to be. And I don't have any on the brain. I have plaques on the brain stem. So I often say to people, "I'm in wonderful shape above the neck." And that is true. All the deterioration has been below the neck.

Sandy Warley (01:08:23):
So it's physically mobility and other things that go along with that. But yeah, I'm very fortunate in that it didn't strike me until late in life, multiple sclerosis commonly strikes in the 20s and 30s. I was 48 before I had my first attack. And because I didn't have any, uh, difficulties in the head, uh, and no cognitive difficulties, I was able to continue doing what I, doing what I did, thinking, writing, talking.

Ed Brubaker (01:08:54):
What are some of the major writing things that you've done.

Sandy Warley (01:09:00):
Oh, a number of, uh, things. The, uh, the first book was a compendium of, uh, papers of a 12 week seminar. Can you imagine running a seminar for 12 weeks as I did for a bunch of, uh, African marketing specialists in 1960s, I edited that book and had two papers in that. And then I, uh, got into the field of international trade and, uh, published a major monograph on the cost to Britain that joined the common market and applying the common agricultural policy.

Sandy Warley (01:09:40):
And then subsequently got even further into international world regional trade and the published books, two books on international trade. Particularly the treatment of agriculture under the general agreements on tariffs and trade. In fact, the last book I finished after I retired. That was a retirement project and it was a history of, of agriculture in the gap from its inception in 1947, until the conclusion of the Uruguay Round in 1994.

Ed Brubaker (01:10:11):
And are you still doing some writing?

Sandy Warley (01:10:17):
No, no. I walked away from, uh, I decided that 37 years was long enough in, uh, in the discipline apart from finishing off the book, which I started before I retired with a couple of other guys, fellow from Stanford, the fellow from the University of [inaudible name] in Germany, which started it.

Sandy Warley (01:10:38):
And then the negotiations came to an end. Uh, and I, I retired what, before they were resumed, we finished the book after the negotiations resumed and were completed. That was my final act. That was my swan song. And, uh, I, I found no difficulty in walking away from the discipline. Uh, I, I've never done consulting and, uh, I find pleasure in other things.

Ed Brubaker (01:11:06):
Right. And one of the things-

Sandy Warley (01:11:06):
I spent most of my time. Uh, I used to garden a lot of course, when I, uh, could physically. And, uh, now I spend my time doing useful things for other people. And specifically for the Guelph Wellington men's club, I'm a long term member of the ball, former secretary and a chairman of the finance committee and editor of the news bulletin. And most importantly, the Ontario Agricultural College. As a retired faculty member, I was eligible to be a member of the OAC Alumni Association.

Sandy Warley (01:11:47):
And I became a life member as soon as I retired, went onto the board. And I'd been on the board with one or two interactions at the centers and on the board and chairman of the communications committee and also chairman of the joint investment committee, which manages the portfolios of the OAC Alumni Association and the OAC Alumni Foundation. And I find great satisfaction in doing work for the OAC. Some might say making Rick on pecks for all the trouble I caused when I was on the payroll.

Ed Brubaker (01:12:27):
Those, uh, portfolios are both doing well financially.

Sandy Warley (01:12:32):
Well, they did until this last, uh, remember when we're talking, we were just come through this black October, 2000.

Ed Brubaker (01:12:40):
Nortel and it's.

Sandy Warley (01:12:41):
And we had quite a significant housing in indoor hotel.

Ed Brubaker (01:12:45):
Yeah, it'll come back again.

Sandy Warley (01:12:47):
100% sure.

Ed Brubaker (01:12:49):
Uh, but I think Sandy, uh, as I look out your window and see all the bird feeders here and, uh, the birds that you know, and so on, I think you take a lot of interest in all this.

Sandy Warley (01:13:00):
We enjoy, we enjoy birds and regard the garden was being part of our, we've never had a cottage. We've always had a very good garden. And, uh, I used to be a director, secretary and president of Guelph horticultural society and did a couple of TV programs for the cable local cable company and for the horticultural site. And the birds and the garden, they all go together. It's an outside room.

Ed Brubaker (01:13:33):
And you enjoy it?

Sandy Warley (01:13:34):
Oh, enormously.

Ed Brubaker (01:13:35):
Yeah.

Sandy Warley (01:13:35):
I can't physically garden now I have to pay other people to do what needs to be done, but I still mow the lawns cause pushing a lawn mower very much like walking behind the walker. And that allows me to get around the garden and see what needs to be going.

Ed Brubaker (01:13:51):
Right.

Sandy Warley (01:13:53):
And puts me in a good position to give valuable though not always valued advice.

Ed Brubaker (01:13:59):
(laughs) you're good on the advice still.

Sandy Warley (01:14:03):
Yes.

Ed Brubaker (01:14:04):
Sandy, uh, one question that came up much earlier and I thought I should ask you, you graduated in hort in 1953.

Sandy Warley (01:14:13):
Yes.

Ed Brubaker (01:14:15):
And then you went and taught in the hort [crosstalk 01:14:19].

Sandy Warley (01:14:18):
Now I didn't teach. I was a research associate doing experimental work.

Ed Brubaker (01:14:23):
Oh, all right.

Sandy Warley (01:14:24):
But only for a few months.

Ed Brubaker (01:14:26):
For a few months.

Sandy Warley (01:14:26):
Then I went over to the department of agricultural economics. So what you're asking me, how did I learn my agriculture economics and I'm self taught.

Ed Brubaker (01:14:34):
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But you had some economics in your undergraduate work.

Sandy Warley (01:14:40):
Yes. I specialized in agricultural economics in my, uh, in farm management actually in the final year of my, uh, undergraduate degree. So it was a natural transition and I did a master's degree and taught some [inaudible] get in and do it. And I, you know, a good way of learning-

Ed Brubaker (01:14:59):
A good way of learning anything.

Sandy Warley (01:15:02):
[crosstalk].

Ed Brubaker (01:15:02):
Do you, um, go to any technical meetings, agricultural economics meetings?

Sandy Warley (01:15:11):
Not now, not in retirement, but I went to them all of course when I was in the, in the profession.

Ed Brubaker (01:15:15):
Yeah.

Sandy Warley (01:15:22):
The, uh, most notably the Canadian and American agriculture economics. And before that I was the secretary of the British agriculture economics society for many years. And, uh, along with another colleague, Karl Milky here in Guelph and we were founding members of an outfit called the international agricultural trade research consortium.

Sandy Warley (01:15:48):
And that's a consortium of the university and government and business agriculture partners with an interest in international trade drawn from 30 or 40 country membership. And, uh, used to attend the meeting to do quite a lot of work.

Ed Brubaker (01:16:06):
The, um, Sandy the OAC celebrated its 125th anniversary since the founding last year. And you were very active in, in some of the promotional work and the writings, in connection with that. Can you tell us what you did? And...

Sandy Warley (01:16:26):
Yes, I was on the, uh, it was the central planning, uh, committee and I was a, a member of that and I became chairman of the communications committee. And, uh, partly because we needed communications component of other committees. I, uh, found myself on many of the specific event committees.

Sandy Warley (01:16:51):
So it was a, uh, very busy 18 months that we put into the planning and actually executing on mounting of the, uh, year long events. They constituted the, uh, the 125th anniversary of the, uh, college. And it was a wonderful time, a wonderful time. Uh, one over the course of that period I've interacted with some wonderful people, both on campus and off campus. Friends of the college, graduates of the alumni of the college.

Ed Brubaker (01:17:29):
Can you recall some names?

Sandy Warley (01:17:30):
Oh yes. Dozens of them, uh, on the, uh, on the heritage banquet hall, which was the previous social event. And, uh, we had people like Bill [inaudible name] and who was then with the Royal Bank. And, uh, Mary Lynn McPherson was also with the, uh, the, uh, Royal Bank at that time. Both of them... Bill's gone to the [inaudible] and Mary Lynn has gone off into the private sector.

Sandy Warley (01:18:07):
The bank's...she's gone off into another area of credit. And one was working in the central committee with people like the two co-chairs of the committee were, were Switzer and Don Blackman, chairman finance committee, Bruce [inaudible name], Stan Young was, uh, he was the first chairman, the communications committee I had to take over from, from him.

Sandy Warley (01:18:35):
So there were wonderful people. And then friends of the, of the university either worked on planning or appeared at the university events that we ran from January through until October.

Sandy Warley (01:18:49):
And it was a great time and it was a, it gave me a wonderful perspective, just how good the college was in terms of its, uh, its color, the attributes, the quality of it's teaching program. The leading edge nature of its, uh, research and, uh, the way in which it was the vibrant heart of the agri-food industry in the province and the epicenter of what would come to call the agri-food cluster here in, in here in Guelph.

Sandy Warley (01:19:30):
So many ways in which the college has influenced the agri-food industry for the better. Uh, and it was one for, to, to be exposed to that, rubbing shoulders with beneficiaries and participants in, in that process. And it also, this goes back to a, uh, a very important point that we haven't touched on, but I think we should. It showed me the way in which the Ontario Agricultural College had been able to evolve and rise above its roots.

Sandy Warley (01:20:08):
Now that needs some explain, explanation. It started off as a college for the sons of farmers. And it grew to be a, the leading college, the jewel in the crown of Canada's best comprehensive university. Now, how did it make that transition? And B, remains such an important institution at a time when you'd say that colleges of agriculture are anachronism.

Sandy Warley (01:20:45):
They made sense when 30 or 40% of the population work in agriculture, but they don't necessarily make the same sense when you've got less than 2% of your population actually working in farming. And where people spend more on bus tickets than they do on food. You know, it, it, how, how is it remained? And if you, if, if you think about it, if you are starting today to create the University of Guelph, you would not establish an agricultural college. It just wouldn't make sense. You might establish a college of life sciences in which agriculture would be a component along with other areas, biological sciences or health sciences.

Sandy Warley (01:21:37):
But it, it, the fact is that the Ontario Agricultural College is there with its old fashioned name, but it's modern to a degree because of the way in which it has been able to grow with its mandate, an expanded it's mandate. Now, a lot of the credit for this should go to the very first dean of the college of agriculture, Rick Richard.

Sandy Warley (01:22:04):
When I first came in 1970 used to say things like this, and I found that Rick was very receptive and Rick established a committee of the chairs of the, of the, all the departments of OAC were a little task force thinking about the future of OAC. And we came to the conclusion of the report, which was published I think in late 1970, 1971.

Sandy Warley (01:22:31):
We said that if we are going to be just serving farmers, we're going to have a diminished audience and diminished relevant. If we want a university setting to be relevant, we've got to think in terms of farmers, as part of the larger food industry. Of the food manufacturing industry and food distribution industries and all the industries that supply and distribute market supply the inputs and market the product. We've got to think in terms of rural development.

Sandy Warley (01:23:12):
We've got to think in terms of multiple use of rural resources. And we've got to think in terms of, uh, community development and environmental management, all those things were spelled out. And when you look at it over the years, that's the area. Those are the areas that we've developed till today, you've got a university located in the school, in the college of agriculture.

Sandy Warley (01:23:39):
You've got the school of rural planning and development, which has all this stuff that is concerned with rural people and their communities and their wellbeing. We've got the Guelph Food Technology Center where food manufacturing and food processing and distribution are growth points. We're into food and health.

Sandy Warley (01:24:06):
It was the Ontario Agricultural Faculty that were the nuclears and what became the university faculty, of environmental sciences and gave rise to the baccalaureate. And it's, it's, it's a, it's a wonderful, wonderful story of how the college has grown from a school of farming into what it is today. And we saw all that and recognized all that and celebrated all that in OAC 125.

Ed Brubaker (01:24:41):
And I think you saw a lot of loyalty to the college from its graduates.

Sandy Warley (01:24:47):
Yes, indeed.

Ed Brubaker (01:24:47):
Yeah.

Sandy Warley (01:24:48):
Yes, indeed. And those graduates were in all the areas that I mentioned, not just environment but in food manufacturing and distribution and community development and rural planning and rural governance and environmental stewardship and resources management and nutrition and health.

Ed Brubaker (01:25:10):
Sandy, looking back on your 30 years here in Guelph. What do you think is the greatest contribution you made to the OAC and the University of Guelph?

Sandy Warley (01:25:23):
My, the contribution that I made during the, the technical contribution that I made in my period as chairman of the department, the first five years, 1990 to 199...75 Was helping hire the right people. We had the opportunities I've said to bring in either as expansions or replacements some very, very high people.

Sandy Warley (01:25:47):
Uh, the people like Karl Milky, Larry Martin, George Brinkman, uh, Alan Goddard, the people who are giving leadership in agriculture economics and have done for the, the, uh, for many years. Those were hiring, hiring the right people, which I think the most important contribution that any chairman makes to a department. So I think that's one legacy of which I, I like to think we did a fair job.

Sandy Warley (01:26:19):
You don't do it all by yourself, but you, you guide it. And we did a pretty quick job. And then I think they, they, uh, they, having either the guts of the goal, I'm not sure which. But my absolute determination that I would not sully what I perceive to be the role of a university professor, to be an independent scholar and to feel free to speak out on issues, public policy, no matter how po- unpopular those views might be.

Sandy Warley (01:27:06):
And how much disturbance they cause amongst your colleagues, I think hoeing to that road, seeing it through to the end is the thing that, uh, perhaps I'm most satisfied with. I never gave in on that.

Ed Brubaker (01:27:25):
Well, thank you very much Sandy, for a very interesting interview today. I enjoyed listening to your talk too. This has been an interview with professor Sandy Warley, uh, who spent, uh, 30 years here in Guelph. 25 at the OAC and it's conducted in his home on November 2nd of the year, 2000. Thanks, Sandy and many long years ahead of you.

Sandy Warley (01:27:54):
Thank you.